Bloggers, Netroots and the 2008 Democratic Primary

Posted March 10, 2008 | 01:22 PM (EST)



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obamaclinton.jpgPachacutec blogs at Firedoglake.

Jerome Armstrong goes a little meta on the ways the blogosphere has adjusted to this rather unique presidential primary season, and because I have no sense, and because Jane asked me to, I'm going to use his post to share a few of my own impressions. So here goes:

Jerome is essentially right that there are really no meaningful policy differences to be divined between our two candidates, and Samantha Powers' comments now about Obama's likelihood of revising his withdrawal plans if elected serve simply to remind us that the tea leaves people are currently reading during the campaign re: policy really mean nothing. If Obama were a true anti-occupation believer, he could have jumped full guns behind Lamont when he had the chance instead of ducking and running through the state and pulling the plug on his participation in a Lamont multi-platform ad buy.

So, we have no progressive candidate. We have no Wellstone, no Feingold, no ideologically based movement person. My question is this: which of these candidates is more likely to reveal an inner Lieberman of some form once in power? I don't have an answer. People can believe what they choose to believe, but both candidates have Liebermanish historical tendencies and both propel narratives reminiscent of Lieberman, the earlier years.

So, it then has to be explained why the netroots has tended to ignore what I take to be this fundamental reality. I think many, though not all, people are doing some combination of projecting their hopes about one candidate or the other onto the candidate with whom they most personally identify, bloggers in some cases getting mau maued by very engaged partisan commenters who flock to threads, browbeat and seek to intimidate, wielding accusations of various forms of bad faith and character smear, etc. The blogosphere has tended, de facto, to divide itself among sites that lean toward one candidate or another and commenters (1% of our readers, but the most engaged and vocal ones) allocate themselves accordingly.

It so happens that, once Edwards dropped out, more of the online readership sorted itself to Obama. Now, I can't see any meaningful policy reasons for having done so (and Edwards hasn't endorsed), so to me it seems more like a consolidation of the anti-Clinton movement among tech literate activists than it seems like anything about any ideologically or policy based progressive agenda. Moreover, judging by the comments I read, the emails I see and the comments I hear when I talk to people, it's pretty common to hear something like the sentiment, if not the outright expression, that "the bitch must be stopped!" This is among self-identified liberals, progressives.

I conclude from this that the hundreds of millions of dollars at least that have poured into branding Hillary Clinton - whose policies in general I hardly care for - as a lesbo cunning corrupt cold calculating bitch, have altogether not been without their effect on many online activists and readers in particular. I include in this the very many newer readers coming to our sites who have become politically engaged primarily as Obama partisans, the people who have not had as much opportunity to deconstruct the misogyny of right wing narratives pervading national political discourse since time immemorial, and certainly since the rise of feminism. These people tend to outnumber the Clinton partisans, at least online, where Obama's stronger pull among independents, younger people and the technoliterati makes a difference.

As a result, there's a bit more of a traffic niche to be taken for a site that leans toward Obama. One only need look at the recommended diaries at DailyKos (Obama talking point and Clinton oppo dump central) to see this in action. Still, there's a counterniche to be filled among the Clinton loyalists. And then there's Firedoglake, which sustains its unaligned position, pissing everyone off, although the core analysis of the site's approach is based on a sense that, as I mentioned earlier, there is no clear "Never Become Lieberman-ish Candidate" in the race.

So, in my very personal and not claimed to be The Truth view, I think there have been subtle pressures or incentives for bloggers to line up more toward one side or another, on either end of the spectrum, though I don't believe the people I know who have lined up one way or another have done so intentionally for these reasons. But at least, if you tend to side with one or another, by God, at least somebody likes you, and it's not a lot of fun blogging when no matter what you write, you're in the crosshairs of some very vocal readers, day after day, post after post. Bloggers are, in fact, human, and I think we can all admit that part of why we do this is for sheer pleasure: we find it pleasing, and we like to feel connected to our audiences.

I think all these things have tended to combine to move the blogosphere away from its previous role more akin to behavior as a referee on the process and on the narratives propelled by anyone claiming a Dem label, and toward more of a partisan candidate sorting. I see a lot of right wingy talking points coming from either side over the course of this campaign, to the detriment of any sustainable progressive movement, but I don't see a lot of people calling out both sides. More bloggers than readers do, but readers, or should I specify, commenters? Very many, and the most passionate ones, are not holding their own side accountable. At all. And they're working us like they're working the refs in a sporting event.

The ultimate question I will have for supporters of either candidate during these days of pie fights will be, whoever gets power, what will you hold your winning candidate accountable for once in office, assuming s/he wins? If your winner gets some accountability fire from people who once supported your opponent, will you simply defend your winner, or will you join in for merited criticism?

UPDATE: Unsurprisingly, as if to make my point, several commenters so far seem unable to 1) react to what I've written through any other filter than how it affects their chosen candidate 2) answer the questions that end the piece 3) comprehend basic elements of the text, for example, I never described John Edwards as a progressive or made any representation of his politics: I only described what happened online when he dropped out.


 
 

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One of the core values of the site where I blog -- http://www.correntewire.com -- is to push Democrats into being good Democrats (e.g., defenders of the Constitution, preventers of torture, uplifters of the downtrodden, etc.).

I am an Edwards supporter turned Hillary supporter, and without reservation, I pledge to criticize President H.R. Clinton when it is merited.

It is mind-boggling to me that any of your commenters are loath to take such a pledge.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:40 PM on 03/15/2008



This is your idea of an 'ultimate' question?, because it strikes me as utterly pedestrian. What will hold the winning candidate *accountable* is always the same. WInning a second term (the 'people') and, if successful, building a legacy they think history will smile upon.



Depends on the criticism now, don't it? And the partisans. To my discernment, most Obama supporters didn't start out against Hillary, they turned against her due to her rovian/republican campaign tactics. Furthermore, to my eye, Obama's supporter's posts have tended substantially more to honest differentiated reasoning. Makes sense as what possible honest defence is there of what Hillary has been up to.

Your article kinda misses the whole POINT of the Obama Phenomena.

There is a growing sense and realization in the populace the future holds challenges of such massive and dire consequence a leader of unique and extraordinary talent and vision will be required to steer this country through the coming decade if there is to be any chance to avoid catastrophic result.

Peak oil is daily revealing itself as real and happening NOW. Global warming far more intense and imminent than the wildest predictions of only a few years ago. The economy in a shambles just as the baby boomers are retiring. The US is in an intractable, unwinnable and costly war with only very bad to disastrous options. The constitution and rule of law at the federal level trashed.

The REAL 'ultimate' question is "what candidate demontrates qualities that portend the POTENTIAL to effectively take on this challenge?".

It is not the 'policy differences' that are paramount here. It is having a clear attainable vision of how to create the foundation that will ENABLE those policies to be realized. That is what Obama brings to the table. There MUST BE that foundation of grassroots support, and it MUST BE massive, united, organized, continiously educated and motivated to action. The established interests are too entrenched, too powerful, too greedily INSANE to be succesfully bent to a SANE course of action for the entire country and ALL it's peoples without that foundation. And without the implementation of a sane vision by a united populace, this country will stumble and squabble it's way into a third world police state with cutting edge '1984' citizen control mechanisms, a massive military fighting resource (energy and otherwise) wars and an impoverished citizenry working for the ruling oligarchy.

The fact that nearly 700,000 people donated $100 or less to Obama's campaign in feburary alone is an empirical actual real CHANGE in how campaigns have been financed. It portends real potential CHANGE in campaign finance ... one that SEVERS the chain between legislators and entrenched interests. True public financing. A cornerstone of the above mentioned foundation. This one of many such indicators.

Obama may or may not be able to pull it off. The challenges he faces are obscenely difficult. But in my estimation he has demonstrated the only potential remotely capable of succeeding.

One last caveat. To GET to the office of the president entails staying within the ACCEPTABLE REALITY of those who would elect you, and if you're not elected you can't change the course of history and inspire americans save america from themselves.

Which is what it really boils down to isn't it?








    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:09 PM on 03/11/2008
Moderator's Pick

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Pachakutec,

I'll take your question seriously and fairly as-is. To what would I hold the candidate I support accountable if s/he takes office?

A simple answer really (though I suspect you may be wanting something more complex...): Restoring accountability.

Of course, as with all simple answers, the means to reaching those answers are always complex. For one example, whoever it is that occupies the Oval Office needs to submit to congressional oversight, as distasteful as that may become once in that office. For another, obey laws and avoid attaching signing statements when you endorse new ones.

And yes, it is true there's been too much "flaming" (sorry about using a term that is so fifteen minutes ago) on the net between, well, everybody who supports anybody. Sadly, I'm one who has participated in those interactions, though I have well-seated rationalizations why some statements just draw a pissed-off reaction from me, though they are, like as not, based on personal fear brought about from watching our Constitution being flushed down the crapper across so many years.

So much for that.

About the fact there are no progressives on any ticket anywhere? That is most likely true.

Still, I wonder. Who would have thought that a hawkish militaristic Republican would launch a whole new progressive movement in the early 20th century as he entered office? It couldn't have been predicted in advance. In fact, I don't think Teddy Roosevelt even knew those qualities existed within himself before he actually occupied the office. And, if he did, I'm sure he wouldn't necessarily have run his very first campaign on that platform. And really for real, if anyone *should* have turned out to be a Lieberman in Democratic clothing, Teddy would have been the top candidate.

Ditto for that other Roosevelt " I mean the bit about not being able to know in advance what he would turn out like until he actually got in office.

FDR's opponents slammed him as an inexperienced, wet-behind-the-ears, soft, appeals-only-to-the-rich guy with no vision or plan for the country, and clearly one who wouldn't be ready on day one to tackle the most pressing national disaster since the Civil War (the Great Depression). Franklin ran around pumping out this nonsense of "dawning of a new day in American" fluffy, feel-good tripe that had absolutely no substance and no roots in reality, and every savvy person worth her/his salt as a Good American knew it. Nobody painting themselves in such happy-time terms could possibly govern the country in times of such peril.

Well, that is, until he took office.

I can't think of a time, from my half century of life experiences, or most of my readings in American history books, when any presidential candidate (maybe beyond the first 3-4) was ultimately able to live up to campaign promises; such promises tend to shoot a trifle high of the mark when the boots hit the carpet in the WH. That's part of the reason I try to be a little simplified in my outlook and choose based less on promises and plans than probabilities of action.

Bottom Lines?

Since I've laid out a few criteria for my own personal choices, I have to ask myself:
¢ Who is most likely to submit to congressional oversight if in the Oval Office?
¢ Who is most likely to have a more complete understanding of what damage has been done to our Constitution (regardless of campaign rhetoric " and most of it from everybody are "just words" " though 'We the people...' are just words too)?
¢ Whose character and positions appear more consistent over the course of the campaign (everybody wobbles, but who wobbles the least or most)?
¢ Since the very character of American citizens have been cast in doubt even among citizens of countries "friendly" to our general causes " our world allies " who might actually have the necessary set of communication skills to reassure them we are not all like George W.?
¢ Who is least likely to hide power-plays or law breaking behind the use of signing statements (a tough one, since no current candidate has held an executive position; I guess I'd have to look to those surrounding each candidate to attempt divining the tendency or inclination to using such tactics)?

Those are my criteria of choice, and the choices upon which I will expect accountability.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:35 PM on 03/11/2008

I hear you, but remember we didn't choose these candidates they were chosen for us. I know people will dispute this but it's foolhardy to doubt the influence of the MSM in regards to steering the vote during these primaries. It seems instead of our independent media, bloggers, websites, et al. making a stand and providing an alternate voice or view to the presumptions of the MSM they'll all decided (ok, not all but for the most part) to follow the lead set forth by CNN, Fox, NBC, etc. The revolution is dead. Hillary represents the centrist rejection of truly progressive ideas and Obama, well he can talk a good game but I have seen no evidence, neither in his policy proposals or in those he chooses to surround himself with, that he represents any else than fulfillment of only one truly progressive goal, to get a black man into the White House. That's commendable, but I just don't think it's enough. Sad times, indeed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:05 PM on 03/11/2008

I want a functioning governemt.

That means accountability and transparency. No more Bush/Rove policy by intimidation. No more Cheney behind-the-curtain deal making. No more all-powerful executive branch. No more invocation of War powers.

I don't know what the best solutions are, but I want a president who will pursue an agenda that will bring these things, knowing full well that the current Republican party is anathema to effective democracy and governance.

I expect to be critical of either one (but I'll tell ya, when Obama supported Lieberman, he lost a ton of credibility...his potential Lieberman-ness is scary).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 03/11/2008

clinton supported lieberman too. remember?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:33 PM on 03/11/2008

I don't know why everybody here has abandoned their free will to the mainstream corporate shill media and their Clinton and Obama marionettes but I'm glad I still have my real progressive candidate - Mike Gravel.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:11 PM on 03/11/2008

that was a good joke. best i've heard in a while. thanks!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:33 PM on 03/11/2008

I propose a different question: Which of the two candidates has stood up against bush's continued assaults on the Constitution? Which one has called for the impeachment of bush because of his criminal and extra-Constitutional behavior? The answer: neither one. I have tried to make this point repeatedly and I am either written off as an Obama supporter or a HRC supporter (depending on which candidate is the focus of the posting), reminded that Obama is a Constitutional scholar (which makes his inaction worse, in my opinion), ignored, told that I am naive, or subjected to a long tirade about change and hope (from the Obama folks). I even make it clear that I do not support either candidate and that doesn't matter. It is simply ignored. One person gave me a link to a speech that HRC made in 2006 that refers to the damage bush is doing to the checks and balances principle, so I know that she is at least aware of the problem! So far, nothing from the Obama camp.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 03/11/2008

I so totally agree. Neither one has really taken a stand on anything.

I expected that from Clinton, on the basis that she needs to keep low because the right wing loves to demonize her.

Obama, on the other hand, doesn't have such a ready excuse. In my mind he has squandered a chance to really demonstrate leadership.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 03/11/2008

ohhh, mcclinton has an "excuse," huh? at least obama voted against telecom immunity last month. where was mcclinton? she was in d.c. i guess she couldn't risk the right wing "demonizing her" for standing up for our civil liberties, so she skipped the vote. very brave of her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:36 PM on 03/11/2008


"At least Obama voted against telecome immunity" He is one brave dude - he was especially brave when he rushed to the senate to support Dodd's filibuster of the bill - oh wait, he didn't. Oh well, he'll be calling for bush's impeachment any day now.

Leadership = being out front on an issue - talking others into voting against a bill that shuts down an investigation of unConstitutional behavior by a rogue president.

Follower = waiting until others have stood up to a rogue president, and then casting a safe vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 03/11/2008

Wow! I think this makes two of us who think this way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 03/11/2008

"what will you hold your winning candidate accountable for once in office, assuming s/he wins?"

To bring the country together! -that's what they say they're gonna do, so do it! Reach across the aisle to get things done. End the left/right divide in this country. To lead in post-partisan governing that includes considering the wish of Feingold and Kennedy at the same level of seriousness as McConnell and Boehner. To pass laws that piss off Olbermann as much as Limbaugh. To cut deals that benefit both the middle class worker as well as the large corporations. To make everyone pony up a little, so no one has to pony up a lot.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 AM on 03/11/2008

The primary difference for me is the fact that Clinton is funded by lobbyists and Obama is not. Clinton is dreaming if she thinks those lobbyists won't expect something in return for funding her campaign. Obama on the other hand is beholden to the American people. To be successful he will need those same people to remain engaged and vigilant throughout his presidency. If all the new members of the party lose their enthusiasm after he takes office he will have an impossible task. Members of congress hear from special interests every single day, will they hear from ALL of us? Without opposing voices there will be no true democracy. The lobbyists will win. Democracy is not about an election. It is about a lifetime commitment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:48 AM on 03/11/2008

How can anyone with a moral compass support the position the Clintons have staked out -- attack and destroy?

I could understand it if Obama had been the first to go on offense, but he didn't. So, where's the justification?

The simple answer is, there isn't one.

The complex answer has to do with the personality disorder both the Clintons suffer from -- narcissism -- and what it drives the individual to do to satisfy its needs. Nothing is out of bounds to a narcissist. There are no lengths to which such a person would not go to get what they want. Even destroying an entire political party, or a nation.

It's all justified b/c it's what Bill & Hillary want. It's that simple. And obscene.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:04 AM on 03/11/2008

You are so right!

How dare Hillary continually trump up charges of racism against her opponent, run ads that claim "he'll say anything and change nothing," and intimate that her supporters wouldn't vote for someone with his "higher negatives" in the general election.

Oh, wait that was Obama. But that wasn't "attack and destroy," or "narcissism." It was glorious hope and unity. Ponies for everyone!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:46 PM on 03/15/2008

The democratic party is soft on the criminals Bush and Cheney.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:01 AM on 03/11/2008

What a terriffic post!

Pachacutec: makes a number of good points here....the foremost of which is:

"....we have no progressive candidate...no Wellstone.....no ideologically based movement person"

Indeed we don't...as twenty-five+ years of Conservative acsendance (hopefully) comes to an end.....a period that has seen even the quite tepid label "liberal" become demonized in the public consciousness.........
in which the "book" has been rewritten to reflect unfavorably on the great progessive achievements of the New Deal and The Great Society,.......
and to glorify the hardhearted, chilly, and DIVISIVE nature of the "Reagan Revolution"....who's ultimate extention has been the two terms of G.W. Bush.....many of us are asking....

"Is this the BEST we can do?..."

I'm afraid at this point the answer is "pretty much"....with the caveat that it could be a lot worse!

While the newly energized Democratic party is universally regarded as a good thing from the progressive point of view.......as is the vast influx of younger voters (largely, but not ONLY) in response to Sen. Obama's candidacy .......there ARE troubling aspects to all the attendant hype and hoopla.

Even a casual perusal of the comments on any lefty blog will reveal a level of what political professionals call "T.B." (true believerism) that to my mind sometimes prevents partisans in EITHER camp from approaching their elective choice with a healthy degree of ........call it "skepticism"?.........even "cynicism"?...(I like to think of it as objectivity)!

Sen.s Obama and Clinton are both, after all, despite their formidable political skills, and the ground-breaking nature of thier personal identities vis-a-vis race and gender, pretty centrist politicians, of a kind produced in some quantity by the Democrats in recent years, and whose records are largely indistingishable by any objective measure.

One thing that seems VERY clear from the comments on this site and others like it, is that there are LARGE numbers of Americans of ALL ages with little experience following electoral politics, and little historical perspective on the issues at hand,..... who are self-appointed members of their candidate's "Rapid Response Team", ....
perfectly willing to engage in the "right-wingish" attacks that Pachacutec cites ....on thier guy/gal's opponent ,....
and who see said adversary not as a fellow Democrat in legitimate competion for the nomination, but as a "bad guy",.......... a usurper,..... to be VANQUISHED,....sent packin'.....voted off the island!!

This mind set makes legitimate discourse on policy proposals next-to-impossible, and allows ONLY tactics, horserace, and unimportant side issues ....UNRELATED to the actual concerns of working people...... to be discussed.

This does not bode well for the INEVITABLE time when, having been nominated and/or elected..... one saintly hero/heroine turns out to be a HUMAN BEING ...trying to do a difficult job under next-to-impossible conditions,..on behalf of the very admirers who will THEN be turning on them in disillusionment......that disillusionment having be engendered by their own UNREALISTICALLY high expectations in the first place.

Tremendous piece! I look forward to more in this vein from "Pachacutec" in the near future. HIGH Regards................................................................................tm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:31 AM on 03/11/2008

Yes.... yes yes!!! The mechanisms of civic activism are lost in the wind, so now most people only aspire to be "democratic voters".... in such a scenario, the only true progressive action of someone in that role, is to cast a vote that has 'movement'... this means NOT voting for those who are lying corporate war pigs with a big "D" after their name, and STOP criticizing Nader and the rest of them who actually WON battles for America for decades. It means threatening fake progressives in the electoral field, since that is the only way people know how to 'participate"... although elections are rigged now, so maybe this point is even moot...

Some people will say "I can name all the folks on my city council, county commission and school board, write my congressmen, and pass out bumper stickers for my state senator.. but I ask in return, "do any of them know YOU?" Nixon passed the EPA, OSHA, FOIA expansion, etc, NOT because he was progressive, but because progressives call the shots when they ACT. We could get health care in 6-10 months, if a small fraction of us committed ourselves to sacrifice for it. Nothing new, I know, I just wanted to reinforce some of your points with my own ramblings.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:51 AM on 03/11/2008

Recently, when William F. Buckley passed away.......... I noted with some..........chagrin??.............a number of my lefty bretheren (loosely defined) lamented the fact that we on the left had no counterpart to Buckley..i.e....... a Liberal intellectual activist willing to champion progressive policies and principals without regard to thier popularity which served to make him often ahead of his time.

My...."chagrin" stemed from my realization that these were many of the same people who enjoy calling Ralph Nader names ("gasbag" is a particular favorite) and deride him as being simultaneously "irrelevant" and a "spoiler" (which is not logically possible)....... and speaks further to the common LACK of historical perspective I allude to above.

Many thanks for your response....and congratulations on your excellent screen name.... which has the added benefit of being both a complete sentence and an absolutely true statement of fact. Regards........................................................................................tm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 AM on 03/11/2008

Buckley maintained his honor by never running for office. Once you do that, you're motives are questionable. We need an intellectual voice who doesn't dive into the electorial trash.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 03/11/2008



Just remember this, ppl:

During the run up to the Iraq invasion, while all of us were at home yelling at the television about the lies that were all too transparent, Ms. Clinton voted to give Bush the power to do EVERYTHING he has since done to Iraq.

Did anyone doubt for a moment that Bush would weild the very power that Ms. Clinton voted to give him? Did Ms. Clinton's vaunted judgment lead her to believe that Bush was just rattling his saber?

A very basic question must, perforce, be: How in the hell were all of us so clued in to the Bushit that was being force-fed to America and Ms. Clinton was not???? Be vewy wary of this one....



    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 AM on 03/11/2008

"You know, I think very highly of Hillary. The more I get to know her,
the more I admire her. I think she"s the most disciplined"one of the
most disciplined people"I"ve ever met. She"s one of the toughest. She"s
got an extraordinary intelligence. And she is, she"s somebody who"s in
this stuff for the right reasons. She"s passionate about moving the
country forward on issues like health care and children.

"So it"s not clear to me what differences we"ve had since I"ve been in
the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different
assessments of the war in Iraq, although I"m always careful to say that
I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a
bad idea was that I didn"t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And,
for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So
that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in
different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate,
she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test."

Barack Obama, The New Yorker, November 7, 2006

P.S., he wasn't actually running for the U.S. Senate when he made his now-famous anti-war speech. He was running for re-election in the Illinois State Senate, and hadn't yet declared his candidacy for the U.S. Senate, though he repeated this claim in the most recent debate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:52 PM on 03/15/2008

I can answer it. If Obama wins, I will hold him accountable for one thing: To be accountable to the people, and not to corporate lobby interests.

I think there's a good chance of this, and I think this is a crucially important step in progressive politics that many people are overlooking -- even if he doesn't have truly progressive values and won't always do what we want, he will be owned only by the people. (And besides, Kucinich wasn't going to win in November, so let it go.)

And I don't come to my passionate support for Obama with my eyes shut, so I will always allow for and engage in criticism where it is merited.

But imagine if we could have a president who actually wasn't owned by corporations... isn't that Nader's dream? Well, that is Obama, but it certainly isn't ex-Wal-Mart-board member Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:04 AM on 03/11/2008

Why isn't Obama (or Clinton) talking about impeaching the criminals Bush and Cheney for their many crimes including deliberately lying about WMD in Iraq?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 AM on 03/11/2008

because that would be stupid. tell you what, print "IMPEACH BUSH/CHENEY" out on a big cardboard and tie it around your neck, and you go do it. dems are trying to win an election, genius.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:40 PM on 03/11/2008

Pach--A couple of things...

First, just because FDL has not officially endorsed a candidate does not mean you all haven't been involved in some of the pie-fighting. How about when Jane posted about how Obama was sexist because he questioned whether Clinton would be able to bring in the independents and youth vote to the Dem party in the general election? There are other examples and accusations of sexism and misogyny, and other kinds of divisive posts as well.

Many of us are very concerned about what's happening to the progressive movement, and the great divide in the Democratic Party right now. And to a good many progressives, while there may be negligible policy differences between Clinton and Obama, only one candidate has been offensive in her campaigning.

And we don't write in support of Obama because there's a traffic niche--we don't all think traffic is more important than our progressive principles. We support Obama because we think he's the right person at this moment in time, and we get angry when members of our own party and/or movement try to tell us that peddling fear, changing rules mid-game and saying that a Republican is better than Obama--is beyond the pale.

My point is simply that FDL is pissing no one off simply for not endorsing a candidate. But for holier-than-thou posts like this, which accuse others of trying to get traffic by endorsing? OK, that is offensive.

Perhaps you have missed the point that some of us started out liking Clinton (no right-wing narratives have swayed me, friend), but that in the course of this campaign, we've come to believe that she is the candidate we believe to be more Liebermanesque. And guess what? That can be true, even if FDL doesn't agree.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 PM on 03/10/2008

i forgot an important "not" in that last comment. it should have read:

We support Obama because we think he's the right person at this moment in time, and we get angry when members of our own party and/or movement try to tell us that peddling fear, changing rules mid-game and saying that a Republican is better than Obama--is not beyond the pale.


    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 PM on 03/10/2008

And so it goes....I have asked time and again for objectivity and intellectual honesty from the commenters on several sites, only to be viciously shot down with hate-filled posts. Thank you for this commentary, perhaps it will be a wake-up call for many of us.

I hope your commentary will be moved up to more prominent placement on this site. What you wrote sorely needed to be put out to the masses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 PM on 03/10/2008

Perhaps cynicism comes with age and or experience but having lived through nine presidential election cycles I believe it is ridiculous to cast a vote based on what candidates say and if that makes me a cynic so be it. No candidate has the perspicacity to know or understand the challenges s/he'll face once landing in the Oval Office. However, making campaign promises is part of politics and God help the candidate who breaks them...anyone recall GHWBush and "Read my lips no new taxes?" That new taxes were more than justified didn't matter. So all this talk about holding candidates to campaign promises is merely a receipt for disillusionment. Forget promises.

I want to elect someone who will respond to crises and circumstances in a non-dogmatic fashion using whatever advisers and advice are available, who will make decisions that don't support corporate interests over those of citizens, and who will make decisions that positively affect the largest number of people. I intend to ignore campaign promises completely.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 03/10/2008