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Firearms Training a Sobering Lesson

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When I was the Mayor of Fort Wayne, Indiana and we had a police-action shooting I would often be asked why the police officer didn't shoot the weapon out of the assailants' hand, or just wound them in the arm or leg, rather than shooting to kill. I would have to point out that real life was not like the movies.

In a situation involving the exchange of gunfire with a criminal suspect, police officers generally hit their target only 20 percent of the time. The most critical decision a law enforcement officer makes is whether to shoot. When the decision is made to shoot, police are trained to shoot to kill, because even that is very difficult to do.

Given how difficult this is for law enforcement officers, who are regularly trained and tested, it seems clear that it is also very difficult for private individuals. And more guns, in more inexperienced hands, are likely to make tense situations worse. Just ask Phillip Van Cleave, an experienced gun owner, how hard it is to have a successful outcome.

Van Cleave is the President of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun organization that takes some positions with which I strongly disagree. But Van Cleave recently posted an account that I found very insightful, a cautionary tale about how hard it is to succeed at being a "hero." His honest account deserves to be widely read.

Van Cleave took a "force-on-force" training course, and he wrote about the scenarios the class went through, and he pointed out that they mostly didn't come out too well. In the latest installment, Van Cleave wrote "gun fights tend to be very, very fast. They're best avoided altogether. Even if you do everything right, you still might lose."

Here is his tale of a simulated gunfight in a convenience store:

I slowly and quietly sliced to my left. The closet door was my safety shield.

Suddenly I spotted him. Actually, I caught only a glimpse of my opponent: his foot and part of his leg. He was about five feet away on the other side of the door, just in front of one of the other closets.

Great. Now that I know where he is, now what?

Do I rush him, firing, risking running straight into a volley of bullets? Do I run into the room at an angle and open fire? While I would be harder to hit while moving, it would be harder for me to hit the bad guy, too.

Do I step forward past the door for a clear shot and open fire, trying to stay behind that door as much as possible? That seemed my safest option, even though it left me relatively stationary with partially obscured vision.

Whatever I was going to do, I knew I had to act quickly. If he'd spotted me, there was nothing to keep him from jumping out from behind that door and blasting me as I was considering my options.

I stepped out from behind concealment to get a clean shot, still trying to stay somewhat behind the closet door.

When I had him in sight, I opened fire. So did he.

The exchange had just begun when I saw an explosion of blue in front of my right eye (remember I am wearing a protective face mast). It was over for me. I took my face mask off in disgust. Had that been a real scenario, I would have been be lying on the floor, dead.

Equally sobering: I hadn't hit the bad guy even once.

I know Phillip Van Cleave is still a strong believer in gun rights. But his story should be a cautionary lesson. After tragedies like the recent one in Manchester, Connecticut, when a disgruntled employee shot and killed eight coworkers, there are usually comments from the gun love community about how the tragedy could have been avoided if only someone else there had been armed.

Many of those who collect guns passionately, and wear them concealed wherever they can, think they are ready for a showdown, and ready to be a hero, if any criminal pulls out a gun. To them I say read about Van Cleave's experiences.

Like everything else in life, matters don't always turn out as we'd like, or as we plan. And sometimes, a would-be hero just makes matters worse.

 
 
 
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Sugarmaker
Act like what you do makes a difference, it does
10:11 PM on 08/20/2010
And here we find insight into Helmke's twisted logic on gun prohibition:

"Many of those who collect guns passionately, and wear them concealed wherever they can, think they are ready for a showdown, and ready to be a hero, if any criminal pulls out a gun."

Is he serious?? The further out of mainstream politics gun control gets, the more disconnected from reality the 249K a year head of Brady seems to get. Most people (as in the vast majority) don't carry a gun so they can be some kind of hero in this situation. They do so because it gives one more option for survival in a life threatening situation. I'm not sure what he hopes we'll see as the point with the rest of the story. Imagine if the good guy had no gun and wound up stabbed or full of holes, would Hemke still waste 3 paragraphs retelling the story?
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03:14 PM on 08/19/2010
"And more guns, in more inexperienced hands, are likely to make tense situations worse. Just ask Phillip Van Cleave, an experienced gun owner, how hard it is to have a successful outcome."

Or, folks could just ask the FBI, who put the number of defensive gun uses (legal, successful, justified uses, by non-police) at some 100,000 per year. In only 6 to 8 % of those situations is it necessary to actually fire the weapon. Sounds to me like guns in 'average' hands are making tense situations better. Of course, this number (100,0000 is based solely on cases that are reported to the FBI by local and state police deptartments throughout the country. Other sources include unreported cases as well, and estimate the figure to be as high as 2.5 million per year.

BTW Paul, most firearms enthusiasts get a lot more range-time in than most cops.

Ask one: a real one.
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04:05 PM on 08/19/2010
Your fellow "real" firearms enthusiast "Tao" stated recently that the estimated defensive use figure is 3,000,000. That seems at odds with your figure. Would your comparative estimates of range-time be equally disparate?
06:14 PM on 08/19/2010
guffmeistertheclown--I am truly pleased to inform you that despite all your snerty disdain, the 2nd amendment continues to protect an INDIVIDUAL RKBA
12:21 AM on 08/20/2010
No I did not. I states that their are estimates AS HIGH AS 3 million. I supported this claim by citing 13 studies with individual estimates of the number of defensive gun uses a year. Of those those studies, there are individual estimates as high as 3 million.

See for yourself:
http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html

To put this in context, I also cited the Kleck study which found approx 2.5 million defensive gun uses, the NIJ study which estimated 1.5 million defensive gun uses and the National Criminal Victimization Survey which found 108,000 defensive gun uses. I also cited each study, so the readers can determine for themselves which study to believe.
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
08:39 AM on 08/19/2010
Below guffman posts his admition that the Brandy Campaign's primary goal is "redu(c)ing gun proliferation" and not reduction of gun violence as stated in BC's name. Pehanps the BC should be honest and change its name to the Brady Campaign to Prevent the Ownership of Firearms by Anyone but the Police and Military.
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08:49 AM on 08/19/2010
CM,
You and I both know that the terms "Brady Campaign" and "honest" are mutually exclusive!

Best,
Old SF MJT
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10:39 AM on 08/19/2010
How about the terms "Brandy Campaign" and "admition"? Those seem to compliment each other quite nicely, in my humble estimation.
02:33 PM on 08/18/2010
"Given how difficult this is for law enforcement officers, who are regularly trained and tested, it seems clear that it is also very difficult for private individuals"

There are two false assumptions here, one the law enforcement officers are "regularly trained and tested" in firearm marksmanship and two, that private individuals do not regular train in firearm marksmanship.

I have a number of friends that are both civilian firearms enthusiasts and law enforcement officers. I see man of these these civilian friend spend at least an one to two hours a day for at least three days a week at the range training in marksmanship. I also see many law enforcement officers strap a firearm on their side and use it for less than an hour a month at the range.

The fundamental difference is that a firearm is a tool for law enforcement officers that they don't necessarily want to train regularly with. Fire arms enthusiasts, on the other hand, enjoy training at the range so they naturally do so as much as they can.

Also, Paul is also neglecting the fact that many civilian CCW holders are former law enforcement officers and/or former (or current) military personal that has had extensive weapons training.
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03:10 PM on 08/18/2010
Your entire rebuttal is based upon anecdotes and speculation. You additionally contradict your own contention that law enforcement are insufficiently practiced in firearms use by invoking their training as evidence that they are somehow better equipped as "CCW holders".
04:09 PM on 08/18/2010
guffietheclown--your "critique" is rich since your "rebuttals" are little more than snark
07:05 PM on 08/18/2010
No, I say that if it is law enforcement/military training that Paul thinks separates civilian CCW holders from active duty law enforcement/military, he is neglecting the fact that many of today's civilian CCW holders are in fact prior duty law enforcement/military that have had the training that Paul wants to think separates civilians from law enforcement/military. He is the one being inconsistent with his generalizations.

As for the training, in terms of firearms marksmanship, I am pointing out that many law enforcement agencies do not have strict required firearm range training time. In fact, many officers that only visit the range when required to sees very little actual firearm training, certainly less than a civilian firearm enthusiast that chooses to train regularly.

The bottle line is, most that do train regularly with firearms, be they civilians or law enforcement, do so because they WANT to, not because they are required to. This is true for law enforcement and civilians alike.
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DaveNYC
01:10 PM on 08/18/2010
Those are very good points that gun owners should bear in mind if and when they carry firearms. A key part of carry training has to concern how people should respond to various scenarios, and when it is lawful and reasonable to introduce a firearm into a situation.
02:06 PM on 08/18/2010
Agreed.
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08:25 PM on 08/18/2010
I'm sure the Brady Bunch will start spending their donation dollars to start a gun safety class geared towards CCW any day now.
12:29 AM on 08/19/2010
I have a suspicion that the BC will start it's training course about the same time Hades becomes hospitable to snowballs
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HisXLNC
No.
11:25 AM on 08/18/2010
1. How many times has Brady Campaign supporter and rare California concealed carry license holder Diane Feinstein trained and tested this year?

2. How many times has any popular Brady Campaign supporter trained, tested, competed, or even fired a gun this year?

3. Why does the Brady Campaign support legislation that decreases access to training facilities, such as Chicago's ban on gun ranges?

4. Why does the Brady Campaign support California's ban on mail order ammunition that prevents individuals from buying bulk ammo for training?

5. Why does the Brady Campaign frequently oppose the NRA, the nation's largest provider and underwriter or firearms training for both individuals and police officers?

These are all simple questions, but I doubt any of them will be answered.
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Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
12:32 PM on 08/18/2010
And what are the 'Brady Bots' doing to help safeguard children in the event they encounter a loaded firearm?
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03:12 PM on 08/18/2010
The "Brady Bots" should no more be responsible for teaching gun safety than they should be for teaching marksmanship.
01:25 PM on 08/18/2010
HisXLNC--since Chicago is currently being sued over the city ban on ranges inside city limits while REQUIRING range time to obtain a license--many of the BS requirements in DC, Cali and Chicago will result in many licensing requirements that are in place being ruled unConstitutional
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Old Jarhead
F-4. The triumph of thrust over aerodynamics
11:11 AM on 08/18/2010
"Many of those who collect guns passionately, and wear them concealed wherever they can, think they are ready for a showdown, and ready to be a hero, if any criminal pulls out a gun."

After reading posts on this website for months now, I do not recall seeing a single 2A poster make a claim that he is ready to be a hero. While I am sure that there are a few deluded individuals who think this way, if I NEVER have to take my weapon out except to lock away or fire at a range, I will be thrilled, as I suspect most 2A posters here would agree.
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qaan
I am, by nature, strange and unusual
11:39 AM on 08/18/2010
Amen to that. And fanned!
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11:51 AM on 08/18/2010
Neither of you has read the claims, then, by gun-carry advocates who have told us that our anti-gun beliefs will render us exempt from the protection that they promise to everyone else.
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
09:51 AM on 08/18/2010
Paul, correct me if I am wrong but isn't your organization the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. If so, what does this article have to do with Gun Violence and it's prevention?
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Old Jarhead
F-4. The triumph of thrust over aerodynamics
10:24 AM on 08/18/2010
I always thought it was the Brady Campaign to Prevent the Ownership of Firearms by Anyone but the Police and Military". At least that seems to be their goal, if not their name. And in keeping with their "name", this article falls in line just fine.
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
10:37 AM on 08/18/2010
Exellent. My point exactly.
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10:39 AM on 08/18/2010
Your gymnastic attempt to discredit the article only underlines how truly difficult it must be for you all to choke down Van Cleave's account.
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DaveNYC
01:15 PM on 08/18/2010
Well -- I'd actually say that for once they are taking a position that is consistent with the notion of "preventing gun violence" rather than (say) "preventing gun ownership." Mr. Helmke's above article does not argue against the right to carry firearms (at least not per se). The article is a little more practical and pragmatic than that. Certainly, few will disagree that people carrying firearms in public need to exercise a high level of judgment and restraint.
09:17 AM on 08/18/2010
Again, here is my rebuttal:

http://www.campuscarry.com/2010/08/17/the-brady-campaign%E2%80%99s-paul-helmke-doesn%E2%80%99t-know-which-side-he%E2%80%99s-on/

I finally got a chance to proofread it, so hopefully most of the typos and grammar/spelling errors have been removed.
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Old Jarhead
F-4. The triumph of thrust over aerodynamics
10:43 AM on 08/18/2010
Excellent article, Douva. Of course, Paul will never see the logic of your position. I have no plans to clear any building if there is a chance there is a hostile in the building. By myself, that is insane. But, as you pointed out in your article, he equated the aggressor with the defender, and he always will. That is what feeds his story line and belief system.
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CelticMajic
The answer lies in each of us individually
12:05 PM on 08/18/2010
Excellnet. It is more than a rebuttel, your work provides the whole picture with excellent analysis. Paul failed to tell the whole story as is his M.O.
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rikilii
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
08:31 AM on 08/18/2010
Let's see how this BC logic works:

"Storming a building with an armed assailant inside is hard...."

....therefore....

"....ban all rifles with a bayonet lug."

Seems like sound logic to me :\
01:33 PM on 08/18/2010
rikilli--especially when it is a varmint rifle we are talking about
08:14 AM on 08/18/2010
C'mon Paul, are you trying to get us to believe it is better to be unarmed when a raging gunman is firing at you, simply because your friend was outshot in a scenario? Sorry, but if someone is shooting at me, I prefer to be armed.

I think your article was very good up until you try to sell us on being disarmed during a fire fight. Perhaps you should have told your friend that since he got outshot, he should stop carrying his gun and just give up.

Or did I miss the point of your story?
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qaan
I am, by nature, strange and unusual
06:34 AM on 08/18/2010
I used to shoot regularly at the local pistol range. Just after 9/11 the store was suddenly packed with first-time buyers. Even though each new gun sale came with a 3-hour range pass, the sales people later told me that almost no one used them. Instead, people took their new poistol and a box of ammo and just went home with them. About 6-9 months later many of the pistols were brought back in to be sold on consignment. I worry about the ones that still sit in the drawers untouched.

When I first decided to take up pistolry as a hobby, I took all of the courses the local pistol range offered. It was absolutely worth it. I've seen some truly idiotic practices at the gun range and I immediately leave the range and inform the range officer.

In a self-defense course, we were told that in an emergency situation where there was no chance of escape, and if we were in fear of immediate death or grievous bodily harm, we could shoot at our attacker. But we were not supposed to shoot to kill. We were supposed to shoot to STOP the attacker. The best way to do that is to shoot them in the chest. But in stressfire situations, people tend to get tunnel vision and lose their hearing and fine motor skills. Practice helps to build muscle memory which may be the key to surviving in an emergency situation.
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07:02 AM on 08/18/2010
"But we were not supposed to shoot to kill. We were supposed to shoot to STOP the attacker. The best way to do that is to shoot them in the chest."

I believe that is called a distinction without a difference .... if you're aiming for the chest, you're shooting to kill.
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qaan
I am, by nature, strange and unusual
10:43 AM on 08/18/2010
It makes a difference in the legal system. That is what the attorney taught us in the self-defense course.

In a stressfire situation you can't rely on being able to shoot someone in the leg, You need to shoot center-mass, preferably with a 9mm or higher as smaller calibers do not have as reliable a stopping power. Even shooting someone in the stomach might not stop them.

So if you are in imminent danger of grievous bodily harm or death from an attacker, you need to stop them in their tracks. The best way to do that is to shoot two bullets at their "cardiac triangle" (the area within the throat and both nipples). It's been shown that one bullet is not reliable to take someone down, as many times people miss wildly with one shot.

For more information, check out the writings of Massad Ayoob at the Lethal Force Institute.

What's more important? Your life or theirs?
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qaan
I am, by nature, strange and unusual
11:30 AM on 08/19/2010
The reply by OdinsEye says it best. "The most effective shots for quick incapacitation and threat cessation are the ones which are most lethal."

If I think I'm going to be killed within the next few seconds, I need to shoot to stop the attack upon me as quickly and effectively as possible. If it ends up killing the attacker, so be it. Self-defense.
08:19 AM on 08/18/2010
Great comments, qaan.

The truth is even worse than you detail, because most police officers don't train with their firearms, and most were not "gun people" prior to being hired. So, besides the very meager training they get early on, many are in rough shape if they get into a gun fight. Also, unless things have changed, much of the training is long range "aimed shooting" which is pretty useless generally, as most gun fights happen very quickly and at very close range.
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qaan
I am, by nature, strange and unusual
10:54 AM on 08/18/2010
Yep, the 7-yard rule is very important. By the time you draw and aim your pistol, someone who is 21 feet away with a knife can stab you before you can fire.

As part of my civilian courses I was given a proficiency test similar to that needed to pass FBI training. The first test was to shoot 6 rounds at a target 3 yards away, reload, switch hands, and fire 6 more rounds at the target. We had 12 seconds to shoot all 12 rounds. The time it took to load the magazine and switch hands seemed like 10 seconds to me. I actually finished the stage with a second to spare. Unreal.

My brother just went last week for his 235 certification for his security job, and you're right, it's got slow-fire precision shooting. I like the GSSF competitions but ever since I lost half my left foot a few years ago I haven't even been able to get to the range. That sucks.
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05:26 AM on 08/18/2010
"But his story should be a cautionary lesson."

Well .... a simulated cautionary lesson.

Yes, a life preserver will not save your life in *any* boating accident ... but I'd still rather have one when far from shore.

A firearm is not a magical shield of invulnerability, and anyone behaving as if it is will be sorely disappointed.
01:36 PM on 08/18/2010
KP--Paulie's bit about a firearm creating a magic shield of invulnerability is a strawman, but having a firearm that you are skilled with available DOES increase your chances in a violent encounter
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SlammoFandango
04:24 AM on 08/18/2010
I really don’t think I need do see a bunch of statistics to convince me how poor my odds of success would be should I storm into a building I don’t live in order to shoot another armed man inside. I sleep well knowing criminals don’t need to be shown those statistics either.
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SmileAndActNice
Utilitarianism, the -ism that works.
02:38 AM on 08/18/2010
Private citizens, meanwhile, have a much better average than police.

Also, when a pack of canines start paralleling my bike on the way home I don't actually have to hit anything to scatter them. The noise is sufficient.

Yes, half my commute is in the city, then there is a train ride to the end of the line, and the other half is on a bike trail through the ranch land. Moooooooo
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marco01
03:17 AM on 08/18/2010
Got a link for that claim? Just curious. I'm a gun owner myself.
04:01 PM on 08/18/2010
Marco, while I agree that a person that wants to carry a firearm (which is a protected right under any REASONABLE reading of the 2nd amendment post Heller/McDonald) should be reasonably well trained--there is no way in Hades will I agree to a civilian disarmament advocate like Paul Helmke having ANY influence in the decision
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
08:15 PM on 08/18/2010
The citizens vs police statement comes from study from USA Today.
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krechsd
03:58 AM on 08/18/2010
I hope you're being sarcastic.