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Dr. Peggy Drexler

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No, Women Aren't the New Men

Posted: 08/04/2012 12:57 pm

When the news broke -- or, more specifically, when the paparazzi broke the news -- that actress Kristen Stewart had cheated on her longtime boyfriend, Twilight co-star Rob Pattinson, many in the media pointed to her total failure as a "role model to women." Good girls, the argument seemed to go -- or, at least, girls lucky enough to land a "good" guy -- owe it not just to their partner but also to society as a whole not to mess it up. Men, on the other hand -- well, cheating might not win them any points, but it's something that men do. It's that same old double standard that has plagued women for years: girls are sluts, guys are studs. Think about it: When's the last time you saw an adulterous male celebrity being publicly chastised for being a terrible role model to young boys? Exactly.

At the same time, when a 16-year-old gymnast cries on international TV, she's criticized for being "too emotional," "too girlie." The implication here is that she's weak. So what's the lesson? It's certainly not about women "toughening up" or that women should act like women only when society deems it appropriate. In fact Jordyn Wieber should be celebrated for expressing her very real and understandable disappointment in an age-and situation-appropriate way. And the media should stop feeling the need to compare every female action to its male counterpart.

It's hard to do. In part, that's because every so often, some study comes out that seems to naturally want to pit women against men. When research reveals that women are getting more freedoms, more job offers, more money, more lovers, the inevitable and entirely predictable conclusion is that -- for better or for worse, often in equal measure -- women are becoming more like men. That can mean women are out-earning male colleagues, waiting to have babies, not "settling" for marriage, or the ones more likely to initiate an affair or a split.

Gender equality is not for women to "overtake" men or actually be men. Women are women, and men are men. And the evidence of women acting in ways that might not be considered traditionally female -- or, in the case of Wieber, evidence that they are -- has nothing to do with male versus female. Instead, what's happening is that women are getting more choices and more confidence to make those choices. What's happening is the decline of expectations, long and slow though it may be.

Two recent studies reported that women are getting less traditional about relationships, while men are getting more so and that marriage is at an all-time low. Some pundits point to modern women too busy climbing professional ladders to put similar effort to their relationships -- the subtext: The end of marriage is all women's fault. But the argument that women are opting out of marriage because they no longer need men is largely flawed.

Earlier this year, an Atlantic piece about the 30-something author's refusal to "settle" pegged the decline in marriage to a sort of feminist victory. Women, the author pointed out, are more educated, successful, and financially self-sufficient than ever before; men, on the other hand, are going in the opposite direction. As a result, women don't need men -- not for security, fulfillment, or even babies -- and especially not socially inferior men.

But marriage hasn't been about needing men -- or needing "better" men -- for decades. What's really happening is that women these days have more opportunities than ever before, plain and simple. Women aren't opting out of marriage out of some new masculine evolution. They're opting out because they can, or they want to.

Are men more like women and women more like men? Not really. What's changing is society; finally, slowly, getting out of the way of women's ability to live the life they want not the one others expect. As Alike, a brave 17-year-old African-American teenager embracing her identity as a lesbian said to her father in the movie Pariah, "I'm not running I'm making a choice."

 
 
 

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When the news broke -- or, more specifically, when the paparazzi broke the news -- that actress Kristen Stewart had cheated on her longtime boyfriend, Twilight co-star Rob Pattinson, many in the media...
When the news broke -- or, more specifically, when the paparazzi broke the news -- that actress Kristen Stewart had cheated on her longtime boyfriend, Twilight co-star Rob Pattinson, many in the media...
 
 
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04:51 PM on 08/08/2012
Reading many of these comments is interesting, but a little sad, too.

Marriage is talked about in terms of "options" and "benefits."

What about falling in love with someone? What about feeling like you want to spend the rest of your life with this person? What about knowing this is the person you want to build a family with?

This idea of "opting out of marriage" makes it sound like "not going to grad school" or "making a mid-career change" or "refinancing a home."

I feel like something is lost when marriage and long-term relationships are treated like professional choices, rather than emotional ones.
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12:27 AM on 08/09/2012
The upside usually flows in one direction only. Do the math.
09:04 AM on 08/09/2012
I don't know what that means.
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Stephanie Gustafson
12:47 AM on 08/09/2012
For most of history, marriage had nothing to do with love. It was a financial arrangement; nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying it should be that way, but people thinking of marriage in terms of finances is nothing new.
09:03 AM on 08/09/2012
Granted, and we have many cultures that still work in arranged marriages.

My only point is that of course marriage becomes less appealing when it's thought of the same way you look at a job transfer or a home loan.

If you don't look at marriage for all that it can be emotionally, then it's no wonder men and women opt out.
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03:06 PM on 08/08/2012
Three characters back in mammoth days: Her, Her Man, The Other Man
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After first hunt Her Man and The Other Man come back with the goods

Her: Respect
Her Man: Happy
The Other man: Doesn't care

Week later after second hunt The Other man comes with the goods and Her Man comes back empty,

Her: Concerned
Her Man: Oblivious
The Other man: Doesn't care

Week later after third hunt The Other Man comes with the goods and Her Man comes back empty,

The Other Man: Doesn't care
Her Man: Concerned
Her: Has a potential thought: maybe I should have chosen The Other Man

So much for love.
02:32 AM on 08/09/2012
Unfortunately for your puerile little fantasy, anthropologists have entirely debunked the whole Man the Mighty Hunter myth. It turns out from the study of middens and coprolites that most early human nutrition was plant-based and came from teh work of women gathering and digging. Men simply were not very successful hunters and when they went out hunting with other men in a show of homosocial bonding, the men usually consumed what they killed on the spot and did not bring it home to share with their offspring or the mother of their offspring.

Woman has been the sustenance of her species. Nature keeps men around for sperm donation purposes.
02:00 AM on 08/10/2012
Very interesting. However the psyche doesn't operate at the level of the species.
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Terence Manuel
Confine yourself to the present.
02:54 PM on 08/12/2012
Whalepeace - Then just how do you explain so many of these comments by women who continue to speak in defense of hypergamy?

Women still to this day in 2012 look for a man who is HIGHER than her in social status. Repeat: HIGHER. Even if she is in the 1%!

Nature might keep men around for sperm donation purposes. But, I can damn well tell you women do not! They want men around for security (read $$$$$), emotional support, and sex.

And, it does not have to be the same man. More than likely, it will not be the same man.
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jf12
Esta vez saldré como las otras y me escaparé.
12:15 AM on 08/08/2012
I think it's important to keep in mind that the Judeo-Christian teaching, dominant throughout Western culture, up through mid 20th century at least, was NEVER that women were naturally subservient. The correct teaching, from Genesis 3:16 onwards, is that a woman does require a "better" man than she is to be her husband and leader because her natural inclination is to rebel. Her having to follow, and him *having* to lead, are part of the punishment, part of the original curse. Her submitting to him does NOT come naturally, and so that is what she must work on. His natural inclination is to hate her for disrespecting him, and so that is what he must work on.
04:57 PM on 08/09/2012
LOL.. where do you get your history ? Oh you of course were around in 6th Century Rome where this was the case ? Women have been subservient in every single culture in all parts of the world since the beginning of time and it remains this way today. Woman is not to be put on a pedestal for any reason whatsoever. This leads to the collapse of society as we are seeing today. Women are careless thoughtless selfish creatures who serve only their gender to the detriment of men, whereas men often serve women to the own detriment but are able to keep it in check when they remain in power. Put women in power and the entire society collapse into chaos. This is not our first go round rodeo with this recipe for disaster. It is rapidly imploding and will continue toward chaos and again we will be forced to acknoweldge that God made genders, not equal.. but with unique purpose. Equality is a joke. Women can never accept equal accountability. Look around . They do not.. not with crimes, not with fair treatment, not with anything.. they simply take more than they give back to society.
06:08 AM on 08/10/2012
Wrong. Prior to the beginnings of patriarchy, most early cultures were egalitarian. Anthropology concludes that women provided most of the nutrition through gathering and digging. In early societies, both men and women left camp daily to gather edibles, while elders and children remained in camp. Male and female each contributed to the survival of their group; egalitarianism was the norm.

Woman has never been naturally subservient. Men made her second-class in their violent patriarchal rape culture societies that denied women autonomy, education and income. Now that women are allowed education, earning power and firearms, the dependent female is disappearing and the true inferiority of the male is becoming evident in academic and life failuire.

Men have held the power, social, political, militaristic, economic, industrial, for some 6,000 years and look what a mess male rule has made of the world. It is questionable whether humanity will survive the ravages of millennia of male rule. Men have created a violent world with a brutal economics where 20,000 children a day die of starvation while militaries have tens of thousands of nuclear warheads, a world where male industrialism is destroying the biosphere with global warming and biotoxins, where toxification of the environment is killing children with cancers and leukemias. Men have given the world nothing but perpetual violence and chaos and misery and warfare. Women, on the other hand, give life and without women's generosity of spirit and kindness, the species would have died out long ago.
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11:48 PM on 08/07/2012
"But marriage hasn't been about needing men -- or needing "better" men -- for decades. What's really happening is that women these days have more opportunities than ever before, plain and simple. Women aren't opting out of marriage out of some new masculine evolution. They're opting out because they can, or they want to."

I also feel that educated men are "opting" out of marriage too at a higher rate. Many of my educated friends are in it for their careers like I am. I do think that both females and males are no longer needing partners to define one another. It seems that each sex is moving on...but one can only wonder what it will be like in 15-20 years. My family doesn't understand why I have no desire to commit to the "nice" girls that are around me on a consistent basis. They are just that, nice. As a 31 year old male, I just do not see the point in getting married. I just do not see a benefit. My guess is that many women my age feel the same.
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jf12
Esta vez saldré como las otras y me escaparé.
09:52 AM on 08/08/2012
You don't have to just wonder. Collect data, plot trends, model dynamics, etc.
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09:17 PM on 08/08/2012
True but who has time for that. 
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rewith85man
Expressing Who I Am
08:19 PM on 08/07/2012
Well, both men and women come from the same place. They have the same flesh, likeness of God, and so. The only differences are the way they think, look, and act.
07:07 PM on 08/07/2012
As a young lesbian, these comments amuse me. Firstly, because I'm a female. I agree with the points made in this article. As a gay woman, it's funny to see all the men hating on women, and admitting to not believing in "traditional" marriage anymore. Hmm, interesting to say the least considering the ongoing fight for marriage equality. I wish more people, especially anti-gay bigots could read some of these comments, because like another user said, many men (and apparently now, women, too) believe that marriage is obsolete. Wonder what Mr. Cathy, or Mitt Romney would say to that...
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01:16 AM on 08/08/2012
Enjoy the mess the feminists have created in concert with the legal industry:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097279/Very-modern-custody-battle-Gay-father-court-battle-lesbians-access-boy-two.html
02:19 PM on 08/07/2012
"When's the last time you saw an adulterous male celebrity being publicly chastised for being a terrible role model to young boys?"

When Tiger Woods cheated on his wife.
11:54 PM on 08/07/2012
But Tiger gets held to a higher level than most men because he's black.
03:27 AM on 08/08/2012
No. John Edwards or Charlie Sheen weren't spared either. Or Arnold Schwarzenegger or Eliot Spitzer or Mark Sanford. Everything isn't about race.
10:50 AM on 08/07/2012
The ultimate irony is that the ‘new’ woman has now completely alienated the decent man (and I do believe the majority of men are indeed decent) who actually supported the feminist movement, respected and supported wife and family, and spent his whole life doing all the things society had expected him to do. Now he finds after all these years, it did not mean a thing. The woman is still dissatisfied, continually discovering new things to be unhappy about, and looking for all kinds of excuses to ‘find herself’.
So be it! My advice to men is to be fully aware of this, and adapt accordingly! In a way, it can be a very liberating experience for men also!
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Terence Manuel
Confine yourself to the present.
08:03 PM on 08/07/2012
Yes! I adapted very well.

I divorced and got two FWBs.

I has been most fulfilling and liberating not to mention just damned awesome.

Life is Good!
08:26 PM on 08/07/2012
If your measure of a man is how many different orifices he is able to stick his male appendage into, then yes, TM, perhaps you are doing very well.

If, on the other hand, your measure of a man is how much love is in his heart and life, how deeply and fully he is able to love, how much suffering he has relieved, how many people he has helped, what he has added to our knowledge and understanding, and how much good he has done in the world, then you will define success quite differently.

You can remain with those who measure their manhood by the number of women they have used. The quality women among us will hang out with the quality men who measure the meaning of their lives by more than the activity of their penile organ.
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Shaun Hensley
The American Experiment has failed
12:21 AM on 08/08/2012
FWB's an ONS's are easy to find. And ultimately unsatisfying in my opinion. For me, getting into either of those arrangements is settling for less.
02:10 AM on 08/10/2012
It's those crazy women again! Not knowing of social expectations for themselves, or being totally dissatisfied by them perhaps. Thus, desire run rampant and out of control.....!

Sarcasm aside, the point about alienating decent men is true. But it has to do with baggage still left over....they want the liberated, decent, empathetic, educated man, but they still hate to admit that they want that ugly "warrior-masculine" side that, in many circumstances, makes many men not so decent (because there are only so many manifestations by which such displays generally manifest). Anytime you are conflicted over a trait like masculinism that causes such radically different outcomes.....you're bound to be unhappy in the above stated ways. It's really a gender crisis. "She" is looking for herself because she doesn't know what the hell she really wants in a partner.
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jf12
Esta vez saldré como las otras y me escaparé.
11:17 AM on 08/10/2012
And there is absolutely nothing a nice guy can do to improve the situation. She has to change. Has to.
04:56 AM on 08/07/2012
"Feminism" is simply a movement designed to establish and maintain social, economic and political rights for women. Why do men find it so threatening? There are women who have deep-rooted anger toward men, and clearly, many men have unbridled anger toward women. But what I see more than anything from the men here today, is fear. Of what? That women don't want to return to a time when they had little or no choice but to get married, have children and spend the rest of their days pretending nothing else mattered to them? Yes, families are important, but trying to control women with economic dependency and, well, brute force, isn't a good way to bring up a family either. Love is a better thing than trying to make someone do what you want. Women need to work to support their families, and children need their fathers as well as their mothers to ensure they will be ready for the world when they're grown. So, it needs to be worked on; no argument there. But calling women filthy names and threatening rapes and beatings - as if there weren't enough already - will only alienate them further. Now, for all you men out there who are raising daughters, read some of the ugly comments about women in this post, and ask yourself if this is what you want for her. If it's not, then make it better for her.
09:06 AM on 08/07/2012
The reasoning behind eqality is something, I believe, most men can get behind. I think it's the things being done to get there that so many men have a problem with.

In other words, one can agree with the ends, but have a huge problem with the means.

But I suppose it's grander to claim that men want women in the kitchen and pregnant. Like beating someone into submission with words. Some men will go to extreme lengths not be labelled a sexist. As time goes on, though, the number of men and the lengths to which they will go to appease, are decreasing.
06:54 PM on 08/07/2012
And some women will go to great lengths not to be labelled as ball-breaking feminists, although feminism is inherently concerned with women having EQUAL economic, social and political rights to men, not more. And they too, will grow tired of appeasing.

But since you brought it up, tell me what "means" are causing such problems? You must have certain things in mind, because your reply was was very carefully worded. Meaning you've got much to say, but you're controlling your responses. More people should adopt that practice. Nonetheless, can you be more specific?
11:38 PM on 08/07/2012
And what things are those?
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01:18 AM on 08/08/2012
Yes and the NRA is a Constitution advocacy group and the KKK a Northern European social club.
01:06 PM on 08/08/2012
I see a sarcastic comment, but no real point.  What is your point?
04:43 AM on 08/07/2012
I'm in my 50's and I do see alot of young people not getting married. I think I understand a little more why 3 of my nephews and 2 of my brothers have married foreign women now. They are all(surprising to me)doing very well and are very happy together. I guess to each their own, I just try to go with the flow now, in my marriage, which will be 34 years in 4 days. Hail, I hope I don't forget it in 4 days.
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04:47 PM on 08/07/2012
Happy anniversary, Man! (Don't forget!)
03:50 AM on 08/07/2012
Informative article. Men are finally realizing they have nothing to lose with women. 

You can keep the old plan. Today's man keeps his money and dates numerous young women. It turns out once we get social we realize we can do better.

Once age starts to kick-in and that biological clock starts clicking all that feminists strong independent  "I don't need a man" rhetoric fly's right out the window. Then the only qualification is that the guy is breathing. 
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Shaun Hensley
The American Experiment has failed
12:02 PM on 08/07/2012
"the biological clock" is a social construct. Women are freeing themselves of that, as well.
01:21 PM on 08/07/2012
Most of them still want children, despite the ultra politically correct mumbo jumbo you read on here.

Step outside for a little on any given day and just observe the world around you. Several people still want families.
02:46 PM on 08/07/2012
Today some women have been told that religion is another way to ensnare them in the male clutch of servitude. On the day they decide to get married they still want a church wedding. Kind of backwards if you ask me.
03:49 AM on 08/07/2012
Feminists thought they were going to take men's jobs and emasculate them and leave them with less relationship choices. It back fired like a bad stick of dynamite. Ironically now men EXPECT women to work and pay their fare share. Men are now cautious of women screening them just like women use to screen men. Feminists can't get men to commit like they did in the past.

No more courting women and trying to win over that one "special" girl. Men know too much about women now. Non-feminists women wrote books giving away all the female secrets. Feminists bragged too much about their power over men. Women won in the past because the kept their mouths closed.

Feminists seem to want men to keep being the same old model while they take on more privilege. I say men and women get judged EXACTLY the same way. Equality right?! Right???
11:40 PM on 08/07/2012
Wow -- I don't know what bizarro world you're living in, but this represents nothing I've seen in the real World.
02:45 AM on 08/08/2012
I know! Crazy right?! That bizarro world you speak of is called America. You should visit sometime. My and my female friends see this daily.
For more information come off HP and see what women of today's society REALLY think of relationships.
07:26 PM on 08/08/2012
IOW, welcome to equality, sista! Now start rowing. ;-)
03:49 AM on 08/07/2012
As long as I've been on HP I've seen women congratulate themselves for leaving "good guys" in order to "find themselves." One of the most humorous articles was a feminists telling women to cheat at least once so they could decide if they wanted to keep their hubby or not. 

Now instead of admitting the lack of female integrity in today's society you want to use that lame "guys are studs" rhetoric feminists have been using as an excuse to cheat? Numerous studies have proven most men are loyal. It was only a small percentage of men who cheated, and if women want to peruse that type of man they bring it on themselves. 

Feminists united? Women used their new found sexual liberation as an excuse to sleep with married men. 

Feminism liberated men. Feminists left the barn door open too long and now men know how the game has been played for centuries. It's a free for all. Relationships are nothing more than a game of wits. For all the increasing men who don't believe in marriage this is music to our ears.

Women? Right! Men don't want to marry anymore and depression in women is nearly double that of men. Feminists are always trying reverse logic. I know so many women angered by the gender imbalance feminism caused.
05:07 PM on 08/07/2012
Got rage?
09:07 PM on 08/07/2012
I'd think not. Nor penis envy. ;)
07:02 PM on 08/07/2012
Iv'e said the same thing from my perspective. Whenever you gain something you lose something else. Women have found the freedom to be just as obnoxious as men ever were. Men are discovering that sugar and spice ain't everything nice. I know there are different POV's from the one on one standpoint but we all ( on subconscience levels) march to the beat of what's popular instead of what's proper.
Morrisfactor
Just a little bent
11:30 AM on 08/08/2012
I read about this, however, it was not an real study, just a survey of lawyers who "thought" there was an uptick in females paying alimony.

Not true. According to the 2010 US Census, men still pay 97% of all alimony paid. That number has remained constant for decades.

It may eventually change, incrementally, but Family Courts remain very anti-male biased.
05:34 PM on 08/08/2012
Thanks for the Infomation and heads -up.
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Terence Manuel
Confine yourself to the present.
03:05 PM on 08/12/2012
It will not change. Remember, women marry up, ONLY.
09:18 PM on 08/06/2012
So with the new freedoms and rights afforded them in todays society. It can be said that women are not only obtaining what men have always had but also discovering the pitfalls of being on the male side of things.

Good luck ladies.....the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
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Stephanie Gustafson
12:53 AM on 08/09/2012
Well, at least we have options now. Before, our only option in life was having babies. Now, if we want to enter a career and find out that "the grass isn't always greener," we have the freedom to do just that. I'd take that over being a stereotypical 50s housewife any day.
06:11 AM on 08/09/2012
I get that SG. In many ways those 50's housewives were not as limited as some would have us believe. A fact that we tend to overlook was that thhose housewives held the house together. It is a shame that we had to overlook the glue in the family unit. Women today do not want to be considered men but progress has changed that and them. Progress isn't always easy but it always brings change. We can't advance without it and we always lose something when it happens.