It's Hard to Debate Feminism When You're Dodging Bullets

I was watching CNN the other day. There was a discussion about whether feminism was obsolete.

Is being a feminist about living the life you want? Or is it meeting a check list of beliefs? Can a conservative woman ever call herself a feminist? Or - as Republican strategist Mary Matalin argued - is that impossible given how the word is "described by liberals today?"

And so it went: point and counter point on the road to non-conclusion.

A little while later, CNN was back to the streets of Tehran, where women young and old, rich and poor, in skirts and chadors were saying something powerful about the irrelevance of what feminism is and is not.

For me, the women on the streets of Iran these past days have only one label: heroes.

I watched one being beaten with a metal rod. I watched another wrap herself around a fallen man to protect him from being killed. And like all of us, I watched in disbelieving rage as Neda Soltan died before my eyes, killed by a bullet to the chest, fired by a man she never saw and didn't know, for reasons that may never be entirely clear.

They were there for reasons that run deeper than the probable rigging of one election. They were fighting for change.

In one of history's sad ironies, the regime they helped topple in the 1979 revolution was replaced by one that almost immediately set out to strip away their rights. Ayatollah Khomeini asked them to fight tyranny; then his clerics imposed a tyranny that - for women's rights - was far worse.

One freedom Iran's women refused to abandon, however, was educational opportunity. In the 30 years since the revolution they helped win, they have flooded universities. Advanced programs are filled with women who in earlier generations would have been illiterate and home bound; living to meet the needs of a man she was given to in her early teens.

But when women leave the universities, things change.

They enter a world of denial and limitation - in divorce, child custody, inheritance, crime, employment and personal freedoms. The reformist regime of Mohammed Khatami began to lift the oppressions. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad slammed them back into place - with a vengeance that reflects every bit of the hard-line fears of Iranian women as the political force history has shown they can be.

Universities have capped the number of female students, new legislation proposes easing restrictions on polygamy and funding for women's groups has been halted. Those joining women's movements risk beatings, detention and harsh interrogation. The men in power have mandated how women can dress - particularly the hijabs the government says must cover female heads every day - and censored web sites that deal with women's health.

Said author and journalist Azadeh Moaveni, Ahmadinejad has been "a catastrophe for women." And women may well be a catastrophe for this repressive regime.

As CNN's Christiane Amanpour reported: "I see lots of girls and women in these demonstrations. They are all angry, ready to explode, scream out and let the world hear their voice. I want the world to know that as a woman in this country, I have no freedom."

The police with their water cannons and tear gas; and violent gangs of vigilante Basijis with their iron bars and guns, have for now cleared the streets of mass protest. But history suggests that brutality is not going to stifle the voice of Iran's women. They are too strong, too determined and they have been at this too long.

I truly hope one day they will have the luxury of debating the fine points of who can call themselves a feminist. Right now, they have a revolution to fight.

 

Comments

[anitaj]

"I have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." - Rebecca West, 1913.

[Balzac]

I'm still in agreement with the core of the feminist agenda. That's why I refer to those who stray from the core individual civil liberties and equal rights agenda of feminism as "pseudo-feminists" or angstivists.

The core of feminism is basic human rights but the word is through the lens of a woman's point of view, which makes it awkward for men to take up that term themselves.

[rattler99]

so you are saying all those lefty so-called feminists are pseudo-feminists? I agree

[Balzac]

rattler99, I'm saying equal rights, equal pay, equal representation in government and business are the core of feminism.

Lots of other things are popularly associated in people's minds with feminism, but they're really not issues of individual civil liberties and equal opportunity. Campaigns against pornography and prostitution are actually infringing on both men and women's rights.

[CosmicChaos]

Equal access to resources, jobs, and opportunities are what women want. It doesn't matter if you are a Conservative or Liberal woman. I find very few women (maybe Ann Coulter) who think that getting paid 75% less for the same job as a man with the same experience level is fair. Same job: Both Engineers in the same department with each 10 years of work experience the female Engineer will earn 75% of what the male Engineer does. If you are a female minority you will earn even less than that.

This base concept is Feminism. Most people just don't know it.

The women of Iran are protesting for their votes to count and the hope that they can make their society less repressive towards women. I am sure there are women Iranians who voted for Ahmadinejad. But they too probably would prefer their vote to be counted instead of just having the Ayotollah say who the winner is without any votes counted.

[SparkyAdams]

paid 75% less for the same job as a man

--

Got a credible citation for this claim?

Didn't think so.

[BurtonOerney]

What I've read is that women's careers stop and start if they decide to have children and leave the workforce for longer than a man would. Those women wouldn't get the seniority their peers would have and so are paid less over time. I don't think that is right. Nobody should be penalized for doing what they have to do for her family. I think both women and men should get more maternity leave and that it should be considered discrimination if that leave affects compensation and promotion.

[NedroidPrime]

I support equal rights, but what I see many groups advocate for is not equality, but special considerations.

In the state of Ohio, a feminist group tried to pass a new law requiring that employers give any woman 8 weeks paid maternity leave, from the date of hiring. That is not equality in any way.

Men have virtually no say in their childrens lives legally. Again, not equality.

In domestic violence cases, the man is automatically assumed to be the guilty party.

Divorce proceedings typically favor the woman, since they are typically given any children, and assets must be allocated to see to their care.

With that said in regards to the US perspective; the women in Iran are showing their strength and beliefs in equality by standing with the men in the face of this oppression. Meanwhile in the US, there is such bad attitudes shown towards men, is it any wonder it has taken so long? For every step towards equality, there are always those groups who want to push for something along the lines of preferential treatment.

[IvoryToweler]

There is such a bad attitude towards men in the US that the vast majority of our Congress is male. We hate men so much every single one of our Presidents has been male, and we've had a grand total of two--soon to be three--female Supreme Court Justices. Males are loathed to the point of making more money for the same work as their female coworkers.

How do you give a man a say in their "children's lives" without giving men a say over a woman's body?

In domestic violence cases, the vast majority of reported cases are male on female violence. Unless you're of the belief that a person who is beat is "asking for it" with non-violent behavior, I don't see how the statistics can lie. But at any rate, what you're saying is anecdotal and we don't really know what people are assuming.

In divorce cases, women are usually awarded custody because women are usually placed in the role of primary caretaker because patriarchal society still endorses the familial model of father as breadwinner/mother as caretaker. If you want to see that evened out in the courtroom, work to even it out in the office. Otherwise you're having your cake and eating it, too.

[FirstBiteBooks]

Excellent point!

[DressEyebrows]

Very good rebuttal.

[BurtonOerney]

If what NedroidPrime is saying about domestic violence, divorce and custody is anecdotal, then I will add my anecdotal evidence to his.

My ex-wife was arrested for child endangerment during a domestic dispute. Not only was she released the next day with no charges filed, she emerged from county jail with a complimentary advocate/attorney. I was required to not only pay for my own lawyer but also to pay her hundreds of dollars/month during our nine month custody battle while I had temporary custody of our son. I've had official custody for several years now and cannot seem to get the child support order enforced.

I suppose I could be making all of this up to make a point. I wonder, though, to how many people the story sounds at least plausible. Does feminism stop at equality?

[OswegoKayaker]

Equal rights? Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn in this country. It is actually getting worse for them. The economic downturn has been disastrous for woman. Look at your CEOs making those billions and count all the woman you see in the pictures. Did you find one?

You look around the world and their have been woman presidents in Argentina, Chile, Liberia, Iceland, Mongolia, Malta, the Philippines, Haiti, Nicaragua, Ireland, Burundi, Sri Lanka, Guyana, Latvia, Panama, Finland, Indonesia, Israel, India, Gabon and more see below:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/monolith/00women2.htm

The list for Prime Minsters is just as long.

The U.S. list for woman presidents or vice presidents - ZERO (as in never).

We still have the mind set that guys in our government get to behave like 14-year-olds boys in heat -- his fellow senators applauded Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.) for having an affair. And you have the audacity to talk about equality?

[llstudent]

Nedroid Prime, give me a f****ing break, you poor white males. You want equality, lets see how many husbands and children can be murdered by their wives as the males do to their wives and children, now that is equality!

[Balzac]

Well, women get pregnant and men don't. Shouldn't women have the right to have a career and be a mother? Should motherhood be the end of every woman's career?

[annaban]

feminist work is on a sliding scale. not too hard figure that out.
when Iran moves forward they will have to debate why women call women who want power either of the b words. they will lament why Obama told the world they opted to cover their heads.

Iran is in the 1st wave of feminist work; the U.S. has entered the 4th wave.
in the U.S. the obsolete 3rd wave (lipstick feminists who have stopped workiing for female advancement) are like Amadinehad--hoping to stay in power so they can keep progress from occuring.

4th wave has zero tolerance to sexism and one main goal: 51% power slots for women.
this is not rocket science.

[marxmarv]

Hopefully they can skip the second wave.

[llstudent]

Right on! It is nice to know that there are still feminists out there because the way the media talks there are none.

[CaveatMagnusFrater]

Dr. Drexler,

First I want to address the question posed in the second paragraph. One's support for women's rights and equality are the hallmarks of feminism. As long as conservatives strive to restrict a woman's control of her own body, no, a conservative cannot be a feminist.

In a perfect world, there'd be no feminists because the need would not exist. But as long as men work toward oppressing women, women and men who sxupport their rights need to organize and fight for what should be, equal rights for all.

I first read a post of yours earlier this month regarding a woman's place on the Supreme Court. I like the way you present your opinions and will add you as a favorite,

[jan4insight]

Great article, although the headline didn't do it justice. I agree, the incredible strength and courage of Iran's women in this conflict has, I believe, been a big part of why this revolution has captured the hearts and the minds of the world. Just today, on Nico's, is a post from an Iranian man describing a street battle in which he and the men decided it was time to run from the police, but when they looked back the women were still there.

And, one of my favorite pictures form the conflict, also posted on Nico's blog, shows three young Iranian women, with loose headscarves and fashionable hair flowing, standing together, their arms upraised and hands clasped, waving the V-for-victory sign for all to see.

[Hass]

SINCE the 1979 Islamic Revolution, Iranian women are far better educated, have better access to healthcare, contraception and family planning, clean water, and are more represented in the work place too.

Howz that for feminism?

[wereeverywhere]

IRI hangs gay males. What do they do with lesbians? I already know what IRI does to women who speak their minds. Hopefully the cesspool that is IRI will fall because of the actions of the women and other rebels who are fed up with that patriarchy.

[Aaror]

Women have power. If Iranian women declare that no Basij gets a wife, and enforce it, the Marij will disband pretty quickly.
If it is too late (already married), well, make his life miserable, tell him how you are ashamed to talk to other women and admit your husband is Basij. Ask him to quit, to get a more honorable profession like dog walker or sewer cleaner.

[IvoryToweler]

I don't understand this article. Strong women fighting to have their voices heard in US elections = noteworthy feminist movement. Strong women fighting to have their voices heard in Iran elections while risking violence and death = feminism is irrelevant?

My mind. It is boggled. Peggy seems to think feminism only exists as a debate exercise within academia and forgets its more visceral roots. What these Iranian women and men are doing overlaps entirely with feminism's goals.

[Callyson]

I agree that this article, as written, is confusing...I *think* Ms. Drexler is making the point that the debate in the US about who is and is not a feminist is not so very important compared to the serious issues that Iranian women are confronting, and I get the sense that she is supportive of the latter and thinks that the American debate is frivolous in comparison. But yes, this could have been clearer.

[IvoryToweler]

If that's the case then it's something of a false premise. That "debate" is usually used as a trojan horse by pro-patriarchy women (Sarah Palin springs to mind) who insist one can be for stripping women of their reproductive freedom and raise their daughters to be obedient wives and still be a feminist, all in an attempt to dilute the parity and empowerment real feminism stands for.

But that argument is a result of the strides feminism has made and would not be possible to have what are deemed by some to be petty arguments without the robust and more tangible successes of the past. Iranian women and sympathetic men are in the streets now in the hope that, someday, they too can peacefully squabble over the minutiae of what does and doesn't equal feminism. They are not exclusive to one another but just different places on the progression scale.

[Paula Sequeiros]

Exactly. When you're fighting for rights there's no way to tell if there's an hierarchy of rights and then which might it be. The only true and consistent way is to keep all rights in mind, though some might special attention is special times - but that doesn't mean you're dismissing or forgetting them. These women ARE feminists, their fighting for their rights, which, by the way, willocntribute for a better society for all, not just them

[llstudent]

You did not understand the article, she was claiming that the Iranian women were the true feminists not those safe women at CNN sitting around arguing about feminism.

[IvoryToweler]

And if you had understood my reply, you'd understand there cannot be the latter without the former. Are you suggesting one cannot be feminist without a mortal threat hanging over one's head?

[RadicalRepublican]

Oops, wrong article. Sorry Peggy.

[kissmygrits]

If feminism is dead for anyone, Rush Limbaugh and his ilk killed it by giving it connotations like femi-n@zi and by women, cowed by the insults, buying into it. It certainly is not dead for me, and will not be dead, until we have equal representation in the Congress, the Governors' mansions, the corporate boardrooms and the law firm partnerships. Until then, the fight goes on. And I believe that the Iranian women screaming for their voices to be heard is as a true an expression of feminism, in a country where they are powerless and oppressed, as anything.

[Jazzman323]

You have a woman governor in Alaska. Please explain why she is treated so poorly by "feminists".

[KayCo]

Maybe it is because of her lack of support for the fundamental issues important to women...and no, it is not all about abortion.

It is about the right of a woman to be able to support herself and her family in a society where there are many female head of households yet woman still are paid less than men in same jobs, it is about addressing the need for quality and affordable healthcare, another issue held to importance primarily by women because women make most of the healthcare decisions in a family. It is also about being treated fairly.

Also Sarah Palin can preach all she wants to about having a special needs child and yes, it is easy for someone in her position to get the help and support she needs, but she cut funding for programs to assist those with special needs children. She had cut funding for programs to benefit women.

Please open your mind and think outside the "abortion" box. I think the women of Iran just want to be heard and have their issues brought to discussion, which we American women are doing without having their lives threatened. That is what the feminist movement should be about...I think all these conservatives want to put the feminist movement into a box and label it the movement of "femi-nazi's" and "baby killers" when there is so much more!

[RadicalRepublican]

It all started when she was a mayor and eliminated funding for rape investigation kits with the explanation that the victums should buy their own. Add to that her support of the control women's bodies coalition and you do not have a person who supports women's rights. I hope this helped you understand.

[OswegoKayaker]

"You have a woman governor in Alaska. " Oh, so woman got their governor so sit down and shut up? She is not a feminist, she is an anti-feminist. Hillary is a feminist, Claire McCaskill is a feminist -- she is for expanding healthcare for uninsured children, reforming Medicare prescription drug benefits to allow people to buy drugs on the world market (this matters because a lot of the old and sick are poor woman who have earned less than men all their lives), and for Stem-Cell Research. There are many wonderful, intelligent woman out there and you choose to obsess on Sarah Palin who was against almost anything that helped women. The minute she opened her mouth and started spilling out the right-wing religious stuff it was just awful.

Last night Sandra Day O'Connor was on Letterman -- she was the real gun-toting, cattle rancher woman who was our first woman on the Supreme Court. She broke the gender barrier there and is still railing for more equality on the Supreme Court today. She sounded like a pretty amazing woman -- she might be a conservative but she is one who has studied hard, worked hard and can speak on almost any issue. She is no Sarah Palin, who apparently doesn't much care for reading. Woman didn't like Sarah because of what she said, not who she was.

[marxmarv]

I'm far from a supporter of patriarchy, but second-wave feminism has its own fundies and zealots and mullahs. As a representative of a competing orthodoxy it's clear Rush saw a danger in it. As a male leftist who doesn't care for fundies or mullahs, I don't see at what second-wave was supposed to actually do for the non-authoritarian left.

[OswegoKayaker]

Feminism is not dead -- it is just that most young woman haven't had to work as hard to get rights. I find it hard to believe that every woman doesn't vote in every election after reading about the early feminists -- but they don't. They were born with the right to vote. When young finally decide to go after real equality here -- then it will revive.

Do people with brains still listen to a drug addict like Rush Limbaugh. I see clips of him on KO's show and the guy is off the edge. There is more wrong with him than just his screaming vitriol his seeming endless and uncontrollable anger; he is constantly grabbing at his shirt -- not sure why -- but a psychiatrist would have a lot of fun with that one. I can't imagine has credibility with anyone who actually thinks. The more he shows his hatred of woman the more ridiculous he becomes. I have never heard him say a rational sentence. Maybe he likes boys. Not quite sure what his story is.

But you are right, the more people hear his rants against woman (which might be just to score points with his audience) the more it sinks into the psyche of discourse in this country. According to Amnesty International a woman is raped every 6 minutes; a woman is battered every 15 seconds -- in the United States.

In Iran woman are losing more rights every day. These woman are heros