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Scripture, Science and Self in Islam

Posted: 03/19/11 10:00 PM ET

What is Scripture? For the Muslim thinker Allama Muhammad Iqbal (1877-1938), founding poet of the nation of Pakistan, the answer concerns science as well as the Quran, reason as well as faith, poetry as well as prophecy. In his influential book of philosophy and faith, 'The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam,' Iqbal called fellow Muslims to re-awaken both the rationality and the mysticism that is inherent in Quranic tradition. And that is the theme of this post: Iqbal's account of the central place of empirical study in the scriptural tradition of Islam.

Iqbal teaches that, as demonstrated in the great Muslim civilization of the medieval and early modern periods, Quranic tradition places high value on the empirical study of the natural world as well as in prayerful devotion to the will of Allah. The word and will of Allah, the one God, creator of heaven and earth, were dictated to the Prophet Muhammad and preserved in the Arabic text of the Quran. But the Quran is only one of the great signs (ayaat) of Allah's will and word. Other signs are the created world (nature), the self and history: "We will show them our proofs in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things?" (Quran 41:53), and "It is He Who sends down rain from the skies: with it We produce vegetation of all kinds: from some We produce green crops, out of which We produce grain, heaped up at harvest; out of the date-palm and its sheaths come clusters of dates hanging low and near: and gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates. ... Behold! In these things there are signs for people who believe..." (Quran 6:97-98)

What shall we learn from the fact that the Arabic word for "scriptural verse" (ayaat) is the same as the word for "sign"? I asked this question of Mian Muhammad Nauman Faizi (a Ph.D. student from Pakistan, currently studying Iqbal and philosophy at the University of Virginia). He answered:

"For Iqbal, one lesson is that the meaning of Scripture cannot be seen directly, as if by simply looking at a verse of the Quran, the reader would directly 'see' what it means. In order to understand the signs of the Quran, readers must engage in the patient work of reading and interpretation: analogous to the patient work through which scientists investigate the signs of nature. Iqbal's claim is that believers are brought closer to God both by reading the signs of the Quran and by gaining knowledge of the signs of nature."

Another lesson is that reading and interpreting signs is a multi-leveled affair. To read well is to have learned the language and grammar of the texts; to recognize when a given verse should be read alongside other verses in the Quran; to situate oneself within a reliable community of readers and within reliable traditions of reading and interpretation; to perceive and understand the social and natural world out of which one reads; and to read for the sake of hearing lessons about how to live and act in that world right now.

To read the Quran well is, in sum, to learn lessons of living from it, after having studied the history and literature of the Quran and after having examined the world out of which one reads Quran. To examine one's world is to study its features the way one reads verses (ayaat) of Scripture: "reading" each feature of the world as a "sign" (ayaat) of God's work. A generation's finest theories of science (in Iqbal's day this included Einstein's theory of relativity and Heisenberg's quantum theory) illustrate this kind of reading, which implies that natural science contributes to knowledge of the divine word and will. Natural Science thereby complements and enriches what one learns from Scripture. In Iqbal's words: "The religious and the scientific processes, though involving different methods, are identical in their aim. Both aim at reaching the most real" (p. 155).

Helpful reading: Muhammad Iqbal, A Contemporary, eds. Muhammad Suheyl Umar and Basit Bilal Koshul; and Scripture, Reason, and the Contemporary Islam-West Encounter: Studying the "Other," Understanding the "Self", eds. Steven Kepnes and Basit Bilal Koshul.

 
 
 
 
 
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10:32 AM on 03/23/2011
one does not need articles from Dawn to disprove claims about advanced science in quran. there are plenty of web sites by respectable scientist that debunk these claims. Huff.Post considers them offensive!!! Also about the claims about the quran being unchanged, many historians, (Muslims and secular and Christians) have written exhaustively on these claims. We will know when the Yemen document is translated (it is no longer available due to worries that it will upset religious muslims).
The Knocker: If i understand u correctly, u are saying that the word alaqah has 3 different meanings. It is like using 1 word to describe, walking, sleeping and running. If 1 word is used to describe 3 different stages of embyological development that differ at a temporal,biochemical, molecular, morphological level does not make sense. Reminds me of Humpty Dumpty from Alice in Wonderland:When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.’ (Through the Looking-Glass – Chapter Six)
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kodimirpal
teacher
07:14 AM on 03/23/2011
In discussing the issue of embryology mentioned in the Quran one of the forum participants has criticised the findings of Dr Maurice Bucaille pointing out the defects in his findings based on the writings of one Mr Nadeem Paracha in dawn news paper in Pakistan.

Please refer to the following to know the profile of the critic of Dr. Maurice Bucaille.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadeem_F._Paracha
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Jelle NL
Unity in Diversity
08:57 PM on 03/21/2011
Dear Peter Ochs - Thank you for answering (3/20) my comment. I agree with the attempt to unite science and religion. That is why I feel uncomfortable with the barriers being erected (e.g. reading Arabic, membership of a reliable expert community, etc).

The Word of God is there for everyone to read & interpret; ripe and green. Each of us is capable to “aim at reaching the most real†(Iqbal), and noboby can claim to be in a better position to reach that goal or to have actually reached it. For there is no meaning to end all meanings. There is no Archimedean point from which we can judge whether scholar A is closer to “the most real†than layman Z.

All interpretations are, what Peirce called, “habits of actionâ€. Their value is in the behaviour they generate. When the habits of action of some believers infringe on my “inalienable rights†as a fellow human being, I do not call their reading of the Holy Text “false†or “illusionaryâ€, but “unjustâ€. In the public sphere of a pluriform society reading & interpreting the “signs†is not about “realityâ€, but about “justiceâ€. And you do not have to be a scholar to be just.
02:05 PM on 03/22/2011
Dear Jelle,

Scholarship doesn't need a title attached to it. Whether people recognize the scholar, the saint/mystic, the wise man or the philosopher under these titles matters not to whether someone has attained these virtues in reality. If we look at "the most Real" or Divine from a different perspective- as the entire world as the manifestation of Divine signs and attributes (such as power, mercy, JUSTICE, knowledge, perception, generosity, will, life, love, etc.) then it will be easy to recognize that each of us has a criterion for considering what is "closer to the most real" and what is not in our everyday life. There may abundant degrees of "justice". That you can judge something to be "unjust" shows you can reach the stage of wisdom. Seeking truth and knowledge along with practicing it develops and sharpens this criterion. We all must rely on the insights of past thinkers (as you demonstrate when you quote others). You had to learn the basics of philosophy. Scientist had to learn math and the periodic table. So when we come to a path of spiritual knowledge, I don't call learning the basics setting up barriers, I call it seeking knowledge. This is actually the best defense against clerical elites trying to horde and gate-keep knowledge. Even the scientific community has gate-keepers protecting conventional wisdom's profitability. We must know what they know and go beyond that. That is how revitalization- "good reading" as the author puts it, comes.
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Jelle NL
Unity in Diversity
05:46 PM on 03/22/2011
Dear msld - Thank you for your thoughtful (and thought-provoking) answer.
08:03 PM on 03/21/2011
embryology-2
Bukhari:V4B55N549 "Allah’s Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, 'As regards to your creation, every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for another forty days, and then a piece of flesh for forty days. [Four months, not nine.] Then Allah sends an angel to write four words: He writes his deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed. Then the soul is breathed into his body.this is science?
Alqardawi is an Egyptian who lives in Qatar and appears on Al Jazeera’s weekly programme ‘Sharia and Life’, where he discusses issues related to Islam On his latest appearance on Aljazeera on 22 February 2009, he rejected the evolution theory, because the Quran says otherwise, He reassured his audience that Muslims do not need to worry about the evolution theory as long as it remains a theory, only if it becomes a recognized scientific fact that the Muslim scholars would reinterpret the relevant verses in the Quran to bring them in line with proven scientific facts. “This is not unprecedented in Islam†admitted Alqardawi as he explained how early interpretations of the Quran referred to Earth as flat, but when a globe Earth became a scientific fact, Muslim scholars reinterpreted the verses by changing their meanings!
07:51 PM on 03/21/2011
sunset:Muhammad's Qur'an also teaches us where the sun goes when it sets. Here is the Qur'an's explanation:

He [i.e. Zul-qarnain] followed,
until he reached the setting of the sun.
He found it set in a spring of murky
water. (Surah 18: 85-86)
The sun sets in a pond of water every night?
i dont think the author was suggesting that Quran contains advanced scientific information. If that is so, here is a thought, close down all research centers, stop teaching science, i mean if everything is there in Quran, why submit research proposals, or submit to people who know Quran, . So all those who claim scientific infalliability of Quran, what is the next development in quantum physics going to be, do super exists, what about epigenetics, chromatin code.....i mean it is all there in quran right? go win the next Nobel.
07:19 PM on 03/21/2011
embryology:
We made him a nutfah (mixed drops of male and female sexual discharge) in the safe lodging. Then We made the nutfah into an alaqa (piece of thick coagulated blood), then a motgha (little lump of bones clothed in flesh)."
Neither sperm nor dust becomes a "lump" or "adhesion." There is no clotting stage during the formation of a fetus. "The thing which clings" does not stop clinging to become "chewed meat," but remains clinging for nine months. And the skeleton is not formed independent of flesh. In fact, muscles form several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than arriving later as the Qur'an implies.
Muslim doctors, like Ibn-Qayyim, when they saw the Qur'anic material mirrored by a much earlier Greek doctor named Galen. He lived in 150 A.D. In 1983 Basim Musallam, Director of the Center of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge, concluded, "The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's account. In other words when it comes to embryology, the Qur'an merely echoes the scientific knowledge man had already discovered 450 years earlier."
The Qur'an states: "He is created from a drop emitted, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs." This echoes the error of Hippocrates who believed semen originated from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys, testicles and penis.
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
08:03 PM on 03/21/2011
"Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: leech, suspended thing, and blood clot.

In comparing a leech to the embryo at the transitory stage (alaqah), we find similarities between the two.

The embryo at this stage, obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech which feeds on the blood of others.

The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thingâ€. This is apparent in the figure below, which shows the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.

The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.†We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage.

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.†If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his/her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance."

Again proper translation is very important.

http://www.islamicmedicines.com/forum/embryology-life-creation/499-quran-human-embryonic-development.html
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kodimirpal
teacher
10:57 PM on 03/21/2011
Grateful for the informative and convincing explanation.
In consolation I'd say the following
There is so much of false pride in some men who ignorantly think that they are the centre of the universe and it impels them to remain smugly satisfied with their own empirically-acquired knowledge, as the Quran says, Quote

“THEY ARROGANTLY EXULT IN WHATEVER KNOWLEDGE THEY ALREADY POSSESS AND THEY ARE OVERWHELMED BY THE VERY THING WHICH THEY WONT TO DERIDEâ€
Sacred Quran 40: Verse 83.

It makes man to worship all manner of false values seemingly helpful to human aggrandizement-like wealth, power, literary talents, artistic abilities or even conceit of “progress†and to deny validity to any truth, however obvious, which runs counter to man’s self-importance.

Man arrogantly assumes that man is self-sufficient-an illusion as the Quran says, Quote:

“NAY VERILY MAN BECOMES GROSSLY OVERWEENING WHENEVER HE BELIVES HIMSELF TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT, FOR BEHOLD UNTO THY SUSTAINER ALL MUST RETURNâ€
Chapter 96: Verses 6, 7 and 8.

At another place the Quran says, Quote, “NONE BUT THOSE WHO ARE BENT ON DENYING THE TRUTH WOULD CALL GOD’S MESSAGES IN QUESTION. BUT LET IT NOT DECEIVE YOU THAT THEY SEEM TO BE ABLE TO DO AS THEY PLEASE ON EARTH: TO THE TRUTH GAVE THE LIE BEFORE THEIR TIMEâ€

Chapter 40: verse 4

So history of ignorance and knowledge keeps repeating, but eventually truth will prevail
04:42 PM on 03/21/2011
Kodimirpal: not clear what u r trying to say. so are stars / meteors hurled at Jinn or not. or it is poetry? dont u think it is convinent to claim that verses that are scientifically meaningless are poetry, or how difficult it is to translate Arabic etc. Since you mention India, I guess u are aware about absurd claims about vedic cosmology (speed of light was known to Hindus), then u have ancient mexicans flying airplane, dogon tribe knew about sirius twin star etc.
Muhammad believed that Satan lives in peoples' noses at night. claimed that he can be flushed out if one inhales water up one nostril and blows it out the other (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 516; Muslim vol. I, no. 462).
Muhammad taught that yawning is from Satan (Hadith 4:509), that he urinates into the ears of those who fall asleep while praying (Bukhari 2:245), and that hell is populated mostly by "ungrateful" women (Bukhari 1:28, 301; 2:161).
Muhammad taught that Muslims have one intestine, but non-Muslims have seven (Muslim vol. III, no. 5113-5115).
Muhammad taught that houseflies have poison on one wing and the antidote for the poison on the other wing (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 537).
According to Muhammad, Gabriel's explanation was that a child resembles the parent who has a sexual orgasm first (see Bukhari vol. IV: no. 546).
with imagagination, liberty with languages and fanatical need to ``prove'' my religion is greater than urs, one can prove anything.
nxt post embryology
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kodimirpal
teacher
02:05 AM on 03/22/2011
Regarding your raising the question of Satan, the question has been already answered
To repeat

Satan are, in one sense, evil impulses, within the heart of those bent on denying the truth.
So it means that the evil impulses may originate from the sense organs of a human beings
What is wrong with that?
03:05 PM on 03/21/2011
Dr. Ochs, thanks for the eloquent and to the point article. I am an alum of 'The University' and regretted not taking one of your classes- although I'm considering returning as a grad.

Iqbal's statesments are astute and do not different from a long tradition of Islamic Mysticism and philosophy (such as that of Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra, etc) which viewed all Reality as The Divine's grand book from which to read-- with the ultimate goal of combining all true knowledge, in order to harmonize the book of the cosmos with the book of oneself. The past Muslim intellectuals took a universalist perspective to seeking truth, as opposed to other groups such as the legalists or theologians who limited the parameters for what is considered legitimate knowledge (Much like scientist do today). The interplay between the self and cosmos allowed the thinkers to continuously arrive at fresh interpretations, vitality and realizations from all three books: the cosmos, the soul and the scripture.

I would only slightly disagree with the last statement of Iqbal and consider the period he's writing in- a time when the empirical scientific world view was taken as the absolute world view. Within the traditional Islamic worldview- scientific knowledge is seen as only a small part of knowledge compared to the vast dimensions that go beyond the physical and rational realms. The scientist strives to understand outward forms of knowledge to reach discovery within the physical realm- not to know his true self/meaning. Continued
03:34 PM on 03/21/2011
While gnostics strive to know the outward forms of the world only to understand the "ayah"- the underlying symbolism/meaning: just as the outward forms of the Qur'an (the grammar, arabic, basic meanings) are only means to get to the inner reality/symbolism behind them and how it personally relates to the soul. The modern scientific endeavor has lost this sense of symbolism- much like the modern Qur'an interpreter who are only focused on the literal meanings of the text. When Muslim modernists try too hard to combine mundane science with the interpretation of all texts in the cosmos- they actually do religion and themselves a disservice. They actually fall into the same trap as the literalist who imprisons the meaning of the text to one interpretation-- whereas the method of someone like Ibn Arabi displayed there was an endless ocean of meaning to swim through based on honing the imaginative faculty.
It may well be that new scientific discoveries-- inquiries into consciousness, etc will begin to re-harmonize scientific goals and religious aspirations. As of now though, both communities are too obsessed with transmitted knowledge for utilitarian means and unfocused on human and self realization. This problem is discussed beautifully in a book by William Chittick "Science of the Cosmos, Science of the Soul".
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Peter Ochs, Ph.D.
09:44 PM on 03/22/2011
Dear msid: We need you in our classes! Thank you for a wonderful comment. While I'd share your concern about contemporary scientism, I also share Nauman Faizi's sense that Iqbal sought to refresh a medieval model that integrated sciences of the world with scriptural disciplines of the heart.
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kodimirpal
teacher
07:21 AM on 03/21/2011
@ Satyayug
"Meteors, and even stars are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropp­ing Satans and Jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in Heaven (15:16);. Are we to believe that Allah throws meteors"


Satan are, in one sense, evil impulses, within the heart of those bent on denying the truth.
In this verse the accursed refers to endeavours to divine the future by means of astrological calculations, hence the reference to the skies and stars.

The statement that God has made secure, obviously implies that God has made it impossible for the speculators to obtain through astrology occult sciences, something beyond the reach of human perception

Make a visit to India to see the work of astrologers and speculative satans that play havoc in the lives of both rich and the poor by their sorcery and speculation, ruining the lives of many by their "ACCURATE" predictions of the future. Karnataka's Chief Minister is a good example.
04:59 PM on 03/21/2011
i have posted replies but do not know if i am blocked or not and i thought i was quoting quran and i thought we were having a honest debate
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Indigo1941
Time Traveler
10:31 PM on 03/20/2011
Sure. A person can find equally enlightened sentiment among Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists as well but . . . at every level of the social structure of those respective groups? Possibly not. Some Buddhists continue to hold that this world of appearances arises from emptiness and is therefore not worth bothering about, there are devout Hindu grandmothers who continue to insist that word rests on the back of an elephant standing on a turtle and how many Jews among us cannot mix with goyim? And as for the Christians, the Flat Earthers and Anti-science groups are well known and even manage to get away with pretending Creationism is scientific.

It isn't just Moslems who occasionally produce an enlightened spokesperson, isn't just Moslems who have a widespread reputation for backwards thinking.
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11:28 PM on 03/20/2011
I think as a comment on what Dr. Ochs was saying and what he was trying to convey about Iqbal's message, this comment is rather irrelevant. It is not about whether one or another religious tradition has a monopoly over enlightened spokesmen, whatever that means, or the opposite of such individuals. Dr. Ochs is commenting on the implications of Iqbal's reading of the Qur'an and the significance of this reading in the context of the discussion of religion and science. What he is showing, and what his Pakistani student said as well, when this particular aspect of thw Qur'anic message is highlighted that defines material/natural reality AND scriptural revelation as a Sign of God, unique possibilities open up for creating a positive relationship between religion and science. That positive and harmonious relationship is significant enough just in terms of the conflict between the two in recent history. But it has astounding implications for the life of the faithful believer, and even for the scientist. And here perhaps Dr. Ochs is pointing towards something unique the Qur'an has to offer, and something unique that Iqbal brings to light about it given our present setting.
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Indigo1941
Time Traveler
06:54 AM on 03/21/2011
Not only is it not "rather" irrelevant (as you say) but it is the point, that there is nothing unique about the reading but that all religious commentary swings back and forth from extreme fedeism to scientific readings and back again.
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Peter Ochs, Ph.D.
09:08 AM on 03/21/2011
Dear samewiseoftheshire: Thank you. That is an elegant statement of what I am trying to say. po
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
03:36 PM on 03/21/2011
"isn't just Moslems who have a widespread reputation for backwards thinking."
Islam and Muslim are not necessarily synonymous not must not be use interchangeably to present true scientific discoveries.
While creationism and age of earth creates a major backlash in Christianity with the scientific community, the same cannot said with Islam. Though some Muslim may not like it, but the Quran clearly stated that all live form originated from water. A good example why Islam and Muslim must be used interchangeably.
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
07:23 PM on 03/21/2011
Correction: "A good example why Islam and Muslim must be used interchang­eably.", should have read, "A good example why Islam ans Muslim must not be used interchangeably."
07:27 PM on 03/20/2011
This is a side of Islam that even many Musslims do not fully appreciate: the multi-layered meanings of the Qur'an.
When the Qur'an was revealed, Mecca was a the location of an annual poetry competition. The poetry of the Qur'an was perceived to be of superior form by many future Musslims, and also by other poetry aficionados who were resolute in their opposition to Isslam. There were even a few verses revealed in regards to one of the disbelievers who was conflicted about his feelings about the revelation .
Musslims believe that direct translation of the Qur'an is not possible because of the multiple meanings, connotations and associations of the words used, and also the absence of single words in other languages to explain complex Arabic words. For example, in German, there are many compound words that must be translated as a phrase in English (Backpfeifengesicht, a word used by Norman Lear to describe Sen. Joe Lieberman, means " a face that should be slapped"). For example, in Arabic, 'Sabr' is commonly translated to patience, when what it really denotes is more similar to perseverance and constancy and delayed gratification, all as a result of a deep abiding faith in God. There are also examples in the Qur'an where certain words are used to describe some things, and thus those things become linked, and then in other instances a similar word is used to mark a distinction that is apparent only on a deeper comparison.
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11:31 PM on 03/20/2011
I would like to point out that the issue of translation is not unique to Muslims. All translation is interpretation of one sort or another, and this is widely recognized in the field of translation studies. But you are most correct in pointing out that Arabic is a very nuanced and complex language, and that it is most difficult to accurately render the multifaceted meaning of the text in a single translation, especially of a literal kind.
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12:50 PM on 03/21/2011
So there are concepts in Arabic that cannot be adequately described in any other language. Right.

You should be aware that the Arabic of the Koran is not the same as modern Arabic. By your logic, even Arabic speakers of today can't fully understand the Koran.
12:43 PM on 03/20/2011
surahs 16:15; 21:31; 31:10; 78:6; 88:19 tell us that Allah threw down mountains like tent pegs to keep the earth from shaking. For illiterate men this would sound logical, since mountains are large and therefore, their weight would seemingly have a stabilizing effect. Yet the opposite is true. Mountains were built up, not thrown down. Rather than create stability they are the result of instability. Colliding tectonic plates push up the earth's surface forming all non-volcanic mountains.

Qur'an 16:66 says that cow's milk comes from between the excrement and the blood of the cow's abdomen. In Qur'an 16:69 we're told that honey comes out of a bee's abdomen. . Then, Qur'an 6:38 claims all animals and flying beings form communities like humans. While some do, most don't. Take for example spiders, where in some species the female eats the male after mating. That's not exactly a community like ours. Qur'an 25:45 maintains that the sun moves to create shadows. In other surahs it is shown orbiting and swimming. Even the moon was said to be effaced and racing the sun.
Meteors, and even stars are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropping Satans and Jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in Heaven (15:16-8; 37:6-10; 55:33-5; 67:5; 72:6-9 & 86:2-3). Are we to believe that Allah throws meteors (which are made up of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel) at non-material devils who listen to heavenly council?
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
02:38 PM on 03/20/2011
"The earths crust, is like a solid shell, while the deeper layers are hot and fluid, and thus inhospitable to any form of life. The stability of the mountains is linked to the phenomenon of folding, for it was the folds that were to provide foundations for the relief that constitute the mountains. Since the crust is thin, it has a high possibility of shaking. Mountains act like stakes or tent pegs that hold the earths crust and give it stability. The Quraan description in the following verse:

Have We not made The earth as a wide Expanse, And the mountains as pegs? [Al-Quraan 78:6-7]

A book named Earth is considered as a basic reference textbook on geology in many universities around the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press, who was the President of the Academy of Sciences in the USA for 12 years and was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter. In this book he illustrates the mountain in a wedge-shape and the mountain itself as a small part of the whole, whose root is deeply entrenched in the ground. According to Dr. Press, the mountains play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth.

Quraan mentionsthe function of the mountains in preventing the earth from shaking:

And We have set on the earth Mountains standing firm, Lest it should shake with them. [Al-Quraan 21:31]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_mountains_affect_earth#ixzz1HALT5b00
06:37 PM on 03/20/2011
I'm just reading these comments and I keep thinking how pointless the debates going on in them are.
I think it's misguided to have any of this conversation in English. If we're going to dissect verses word by word in order to examine them for their scientific accuracy, the conversation would need to be had in Arabic.

The English word, abdomen, for example, probably comes from a word in Arabic that has extremely different connotations and may not even refer to the same thing. There are words in the Arabic language that have literally dozens of possible meanings, and hundreds of possible English equivalents. Just something to consider.
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12:51 PM on 03/21/2011
Which Arabic? The Arabic of the Koran or modern Arabic?

Modern Arabic is itself a translation of ancient Arabic.
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kodimirpal
teacher
06:36 AM on 03/20/2011
http://www.quranandscience.com/human/135-dr-keith-moore-confirms-embryology-in-quran.html

Maurice Bucaille was the secretary of the French Academy of scientists in the 1950s and he was personal physician to King Faizal of Saudi Arabia.

He stayed in Saudi Arabia for a long time, learnt the language of the Quran and did six years of massive research on the originality of the Quran that was revealed 1,400 years ago.

After checking the original hand –written copies of the Quran kept at the Top kopi museum in Istanbul ( having carried out Radio Carbon 14 test on dating of the Quran at the museum) he was convinced that Quran has been the only religious scripture in the world that had maintained its original revelation for the past 1,400 years.

After doing a research on a verse given on embryology, (see the web reference abaove) he decided to convert to Islam. He has written a couple of books on his research. (1) The Bible, The Qur'an and Science. by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. THE HOLY SCRIPTURES EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT OF MODERN KNOWLEDGE (2) What is the Origin of Man? The Answers of Science and the Holy Scriptures. Dr Maurice Bucaille.

Many Christian scholars (critics of Islam) have been trying for several hundred years to prove factual/scientific/historical errors and inaccuracies in the Quran but all in vain.

Please refer to the Sacred Quran Chapter 33: Verses 13-16 to know what it says about human embryology
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
11:09 AM on 03/20/2011
Oh no... not this again.
Here... read this again, from Pakistan's national newspaper, Dawn:

@ http://blog.dawn.com/2010/11/25/the-science-of-farce/

Maurice Bucaille was a French medical doctor who in 1973 was appointed as the personal physician of Saudi monarch, King Faisal. Unlike an objective scientist, Bucaille’s claims were based not on empirical observation, but rather on his uncritical acceptance of certain Muslim beliefs based on ahadith and theology compiled by one of the most conservative and inflexible ancient Muslim jurists, Imam Ahmed Hanibal and his disciples.

Bucaille faced stern criticism from both western and Muslim scientists, especially Muslim scientists who accused him of misleading Muslim youth and encouraging them to shun the conventional study of modern science just because everything that they needed to know about physics, chemistry, astronomy and biology was in the Quran.
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kodimirpal
teacher
10:41 PM on 03/21/2011
I did post a reply twice, heaven knows what have happened to them?
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kodimirpal
teacher
07:30 AM on 03/23/2011
Regarding Bucalle facing stern criticism you have heavily relied on the writings of one Mr Nadeem Paracha in Dawn news paper in Pakistan. Please refer to the following to know the profile of the critic Nadeem Paracha
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadeem_F._Paracha
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Peter Ochs, Ph.D.
11:30 AM on 03/20/2011
kodimirpal: Thank you for this very helpful post. I'll add a related book that explains the role of Islam in the development of modern experimental science -- a role almost wholly neglected in US and most western textbooks on modern history: George Saliba, Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance (MIT Press, 2011). po
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kodimirpal
teacher
12:54 PM on 03/20/2011
Thank you Dr. for reading my comment and the information on the book that I have not read.
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Jelle NL
Unity in Diversity
03:34 AM on 03/20/2011
Dear Peter Ochs - You seem to support the claim that one have to step into a tradition (“situate oneself within a reliable community of readers and within reliable traditions of reading and interpretationâ€) to understand the Quran. This seems highly unlikely (to me). 1) If the first believers had done that, there would not have been a moslem community today. 2) the Word of God is not for intellectuals only. 3) Prejudice & imitation are not part of a scientific attitude.
These preconditions seem to serve one purpose only: to safeguard the position of those who claim to know the Will of God.

“O ye lovers of truth, ye servants of humankind! ... the breeding ground of all these tragedies [wars] is prejudice: prejudice of race and nation, of religion, of political opinion; and the root cause of prejudice is blind imitation of the past. ...So long as this aping of the past persisteth, just so long will the foundations of the social order be blown to the four winds, just so long will humanity be continually exposed to direst peril.†(Abdu’l-Baha, 1844-1921)
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Peter Ochs, Ph.D.
11:39 AM on 03/20/2011
Jelle NL: Thank you for your comment, which I take seriously. My only disagreement with you is I do not regard the notion of "being situated in a reliable community of readers" to be prejudicial. I offer it as a description of how scriptures get to be read. The Prophet Mohammad's family and companions spoke his Arabic language and shared his culture and therefore were able to join in his early work. If you have become part of a Baha'i community, I trust you have acquired familiarity with Baha'i sources and texts and such. If you do not consider yourself part of that community, ok, of course you are able to read and enjoy these sources anyway. But I would stick to my observation that good reading tends to be informed by the complexities and subtleties that emerge within long-growing traditions. po
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
02:00 PM on 03/20/2011
Very insightful observation Mr. Ochs . This is not unusual, most distinguished anthropologist will visit with the communities, study their language before they published their research anyway.
In this case, the classical Arabic are not even spoken by most contemporary Arabs, and themselves have problem understanding the root words for certain passage in the Quran.
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
01:41 AM on 03/20/2011
It is inconceivable to some that the Quran contain scientific facts that was only recently discovered and points to the opposite that it contains contradictory scientific statement as the Bible does.. However, these scientific contradiction, they claimed, are all based on mis-translation from classical Arabic to English. Also, they are oblivious to the fact that the Quran used vocabulary suited for the eighth century vernacular.
Case and point.
" Then He (God) turned to the heavens, and it was smoke. And said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.†They said, “We come willingly.†(Quran 41:11)
Most translation use the word "smoke", but the Arabic word "dukhan", could also be translated as "Then He turned to the heavens, and it was in a gaseous state."

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=21

Furthermore, one one take into account the Arabic version of the Quran, not a single scientific passage contradict with todays modern scientific facts, more of a reason why the Prophet Mohammad could not have copied from the Bible.
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03:00 AM on 03/20/2011
Ya....Adam and Eve, Johan lived in a whale, the sun set under his throne, and shooting stars are missiles god throws at naughty genies, and somewhere the poor people of gog and magog are trapped behind a giant iron wall........Science!

Dude, the funny thing is, lets read 41 in its entirety:
Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
13. But if they turn away, say thou: "I have warned you of a stunning Punishment (as of thunder and lightning) like that which (overtook) the 'Ad and the Thamud!"

LOL......
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The Knocker
a mind is a terrible thing to waste
04:27 AM on 03/20/2011
Let me repeat my selves: "However, these scientific contradict­ion, they claimed, are all based on mis-transl­ation from classical Arabic to English. Also, they are oblivious to the fact that the Quran used vocabulary suited for the eighth century vernacular­."

The verse you just regurgitate proves my point, and the translation you quote, dates back from 1930's when scientific understanding of the universe was unknown, so the translator choose words suits him best back then.
It may surprise you but the Arabic word for seven also connotes , "several". In the classical Quranic Arabic "Heavens" has several meaning which may includes the galaxy or the universe in general.
However, you have overlooked the fact that the Quran is referring the early stages when the earth and the universe was created. So may be in the beginning several universe or galaxy that was created after the Big Bang.

Another example of that: "Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then?" (21:30)
Here the word heaven", clearly refer to the earth and the rest of the universe, when it was together (in gaseous state ), which today is scientific accurate as all science agree that the universe was one.
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03:03 AM on 03/20/2011
"not a single scientific passage contradict with todays modern scientific facts"

Except the whole having the earth be finished while the 'sky isnt finished "being designed".

BTW: the 7 heavens? Its silly in the bible and quran
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kodimirpal
teacher
04:59 AM on 03/20/2011
a reply to your seven days julian101

The Old Testament says that the world was created in six days and then it says God took rest on the seventh day.

Does God need rest?.

Quran corrects the human error of the days of creation by saying that “ A DAY IN THE SIGHT OF YOUR LORD IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS OF YOUR RECKONING

‘IN A DAY THE MEASURE WHESRE OF IS FIFTY THOUSAND YEARSâ€

I quote the exact verses from the Quran for reference for the benefit of doubters.

From Chapter 22

022.047 Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But God will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.


I repeat junlian, scientists who are hostile towards islam have been working hard to falsify the scientific facts found in the Quran but they have miserably failed and continue to fail and NOT A SINGLE SCIENTIFIC PASSAGE OF THE QURAN CONTRADICTS TODAY'S MODERN SCIENTIFIC FACTS.

Should it be the case, many may as George Bernard Shaw did ( he sold his copy of the Bible) sell their copies of the Quran to the dealer recycling old newspapers. This will never ever happen. Moreover you see that Islam is spreading faster in the modern scientific world, more so particularly in the progressive West due to its scientific approach and rationality compared to the Bible and other scriptures.
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
06:24 AM on 03/20/2011
The "seven heavens" refers to seven levels of subjective consciousness - or, rather, six levels, contained within original, non-focused awareness; see: chakras. All spiritual traditions have a logical basis which is completely in harmony with reality, once the symbolism and related models are understood.

"A language-model based solely on 1s and 0s? Riiight .... good luck with that .,.,.."

As In: binary might seem a bit amusingly naive to the non-mathematically-minded at "first pass".

We "moderns", especially of the material-reality-only bias variety, can be a bit arrogant at times, per our smugness about our own "advanced technology".

The reality is: we are relatively advanced, related to external/gross technologies.

The ancients, whether Arab, Hebrew, Indian, Chinese, Egyptian or otherwise were quite advanced from an internal/subtle technology standpoint.

They understood how to harmonize consciousness, attitudes and behavior with the whole of reality, which we are not separate from, in ways that modern people and societies (rather obviously, per the news on any particular day) could do well to learn from.

I'm not referring to literal interpretations of ancient writings; that's where people often get into trouble, and where many understandably dismiss ancient writings as fairy tales.

Traditions such as Sufism (Islam), Kabbalah (Judaism), gnostic Christianity, non-dual Indian schools (Kashmir Shaivism, Advaita Vedanta), non-dual Buddhism (Vajrayana, Dzogchen, etc.), Taoism, and so on - hold the keys to unlocking the "binary code" of religions.