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Philip Goldberg

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Making Space For Sane Spirituality

Posted: 11/26/10 07:54 PM ET

Atheist organizations are now unleashing a barrage of ads in various media, escalating their struggle against their faith-based enemies. According to Laurie Goodstein in the New York Times, the campaign is both an attempt to neutralize the perceived stigma attached to atheism and an effort to recruit allies to the side of reason.

I'm all for denouncing religious fanaticism and debunking biblical literalism, but I have two problems with the plan. First, the more acerbic ads will only be taken as proof that atheists can be just as irrational, unreasonable and obnoxious as the true believers they mock. Second, and more important, it perpetuates the false proposition that there are only two sides in the religious debate: conservative Bible-thumpers and radical anti-religionists. What about the rest of us?

The predominance of religious zealots in the media says more about their volume than their actual numbers. And, given the profiles of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris et al, it's not as if radical atheism is being left out of the conversation. The real voiceless ones belong to neither of those two camps. I'm referring to the enormous number of people who actively engage in some form of what my colleagues in the Forge Institute call "sane spirituality." These are people who recognize that we're part of a transcendent something -- a no-thing, really -- and that connecting to, or uniting with, that infinite ineffable wholeness is natural and beneficial.

This diverse, unorganized mish-mash of open-minded seekers tends to approach spirituality in a reasonable, rational and pragmatic manner. A large percentage of them are in the fastest-growing religious category in America: spiritual but not religious (SBNR). Many practice methodologies derived from ancient traditions born in India, which we've come to call Hinduism and Buddhism, although very few Western practitioners call themselves Hindus or Buddhists. Also in the group are people whose world views are secular and who view practices such as meditation as the applied components of a science of consciousness, or simply as ways to enhance well-being. Finally, the voiceless include many people who appear to be conventionally religious, in that they attend worship services, celebrate religious holidays and teach their children about their religious heritage. But they participate on their own terms: They don't believe everything that staunch atheists assume they believe; they don't accept all religious dogma as revealed truth; and if they value scripture at all they do so selectively and read it metaphorically, not as history or as an infallible guide to morality.

The sanely spiritual do not suppress their doubts; they think logically and accept the testimony of science. Their likely answer to the query "Do you believe in God?" is, "It depends on what you mean by that term." They're wary of the G-word because it's come to be associated with belief in an anthropomorphic father figure in the sky, whereas they're more inclined to postulate a formless, creative power that would not seem out of place in a physics seminar. In short, they are rational, reasonable individuals who regard the spiritual dimension of life as a central feature of human development and pursue it in the spirit of good old American pragmatism. They do what works, placing direct experience and observation over ideology or doctrine. To the degree that they have faith in something, it is the kind of faith that proceeds from evidence and reason, like a scientist's faith in the outcome of an experiment.

This practical, autonomous, experience-driven spirituality recognizes that there are many ways to define the sacred and many pathways to it (as sages have told us for millennia, ever since the Rig Veda was first formulated). It is a down-to-earth antidote to the screaming ideologues and fanatics who falsely polarize religious discussions. And, judging from the survey data I came across when researching my book, American Veda, it clearly represents the future.

And guess who can be counted among the sanely spiritual: Sam Harris. The lead singer in the American atheist choir ever since his bestseller The End of Faith, Harris was outed, if that's the right word, in a recent Newsweek article by Lisa Miller. It turns out that he acknowledges the distinction between unthinking religious belief and sensible spirituality. In fact, he's a long-time meditation practitioner himself, having spent time in India and Nepal as a youthful seeker. "I see nothing irrational about seeking the states of mind that lie at the core of many religions," he says.

Precisely. Those states of mind have been shown, scientifically, to be beneficial to health, happiness and the cultivation of qualities we hold to desirable, like compassion. Why didn't you tell us sooner, Sam? Actually, if you read him carefully, he said it all along. But the media evidently can't handle nuance. Maybe Harris can now help us move beyond the clamorous tag-team matches that place faith and religion in one corner and reason and atheism in the other, relegating the sanely spiritual to the bleachers.

The fanatics who believe that their way -- their God, their prophet, their book -- is the one true way are on the wrong end of history. They're bound to wreak a lot of havoc on their way out, but mockery is not the antidote and logic alone won't change many minds. The urge to transcend, to connect deeply, to penetrate the great cosmic mysteries and elevate mundane life to the level of the sacred has always been with us and it always will be. That impulse, sensibly pursued, is the heartbeat of healthy religion, and it's the best remedy for the madness of extremism.

 
 
 

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Atheist organizations are now unleashing a barrage of ads in various media, escalating their struggle against their faith-based enemies. According to Laurie Goodstein in the New York Times, the campa...
Atheist organizations are now unleashing a barrage of ads in various media, escalating their struggle against their faith-based enemies. According to Laurie Goodstein in the New York Times, the campa...
 
 
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01:38 AM on 12/04/2010
Very well presented. I couldn't agree more. And as pointed out, the key counter-question to whether someone "believes in God," is to ask what is meant by the word--anthropomorphic rule giver in the sky, or Einstein's "God of Spinoza." My brother and I explore many related issues in our just-published science-adventure novel, "The Shroud." www.TheShroud.net.
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Ian Gurvitz
Writer
12:17 PM on 12/02/2010
Well-thought out and well-written. Taking a giant step away from the childish, primitive belief in the anthropomorphic God is a giant step toward sanity. The final step is to let go of the idea of connecting to a thing, whether thing or "no-thing," and focusing, as you did at the end, on religion as a psychological phenomenon. Religious experience is a state of mind.
02:33 AM on 12/02/2010
Thank You Mr. Goldberg, for so aptly speaking for those of us who believe in a Higher Force but who repudiate dogmatic fundamentalism. I truly appreciate it!

I am an educated, young American who is not afraid of spiritual wisdom. Neither Pat Robertson nor Richard Dawkins speak for me and I am tired of the ever-increasing push to shove me into either category. Again, thanks!
05:47 PM on 01/21/2011
What higher force? A conscious force? What on earth does a higher force mean exactly?
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
03:13 PM on 11/30/2010
As a scientist, I have heard many coleagues call themselves athiest, but when I talk with them, I usually find that they reject, not the all-powerful creative force of the universe, but the human-sized, anthropomorphic travesty that a child can accept
It is true that we must all, to some degree, understand God in human terms, but we must also keep in mind that we are so much less than God that any understanding is, of necessity, stunted and incomplete.
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Schweik
10:18 PM on 11/30/2010
any understand­ing [of God] is, of necessity, stunted and incomplete.
But why is it that you dedicated your post modern language games to culturally enforced Abrahamic invention of monotheism you grew up with?

We should worship the Olympic Gods, Aztec Cihuacoatyl, and Isis!
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Schweik
01:47 PM on 11/30/2010
"Those who forget good and evil and seek only to know the facts are more likely to achieve good than those who view the world through the distorting medium of their own desires." -- Bertrand Russell
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pdferguson
Micro-bios? We don't need no stinkin' micro-bios!
02:28 PM on 11/30/2010
That's a marvelous quote. It beautifully expresses the defining characteristic of God belief, that people cannot avoid instilling in their Gods those desires and traits they themselves hold. Jealous believers have jealous gods, homophobic believers have homophobic gods.

Gods, as they have always been, are simply a product of the human imagination, an external proxy for the believer's ego.
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Schweik
02:41 PM on 11/30/2010
Agree .Gods, in their bewildering variety are proof of amazing human imagination and capability for invention. It is a great and exhaustible subject of academic study. Rational people of the world should work to make sure this is understood by everyone.
03:53 PM on 11/30/2010
A pithy quote, but in my opinion, its devoid of meaning.

Human desire is what leads people to create and discover. The completely rational, emotionally-detached scientist is as much of an imaginary ideal as the father in the sky.

Those who claim that there are no higher powers, yet applaud their own consciousness, are just elevating themselves into the gods they so detest. They have the same faith in themselves and their own convictions as the much maligned "true" believers.
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pdferguson
Micro-bios? We don't need no stinkin' micro-bios!
04:48 PM on 11/30/2010
Rubbish. Those who claim there ARE higher powers, yet cannot provide any evidence for them, are just projecting themselves into the gods they so wish were real. They have the same faith in themselves and their own convictions as a young child does in Santa Claus.
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Schweik
10:34 PM on 11/29/2010
cayuse posted "What did science know 6000 or 2000 years ago."

There was no science at that time,as we understand it today.

Modern science really came into its known when naturalists ( for the lack of a better word) developed and adopted Scientific Method as M.O. thus separating themselves from philosophers and theologians. Th astonishing success of scientific approach is self-evident--- you're using the Net.
Failure of other approaches is just as evident in devolution of the Islamic civilization which failed to adopt the scientific method and suppress its fundamentalists.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
09:00 AM on 11/30/2010
Science is a discipline, not a religion. I doubt that fundamentalists do not use science. You are aware of Big Bank tied to there chest. Stopping of Blood, Clear the Airway, Treat for shock. etc.

Philosophers and theologians like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were scientist too. As are many of us. I use writing, but that does not make me a secretary or tech writer.

Science is not a self fulfilling prophesy, it is but a tool and method. Not and end unto itself. Yogi's have used physical exercise to promote different state of health and physical conditioning, used breath control to calm the mind creating concentration, and meditation to free the spirit from within and let it out of the body and mind. This is physical and metaphysical science. Has not changed in 4000 years. I realise Hatha Yoga, Karate, Kung Foo are exiting to create pain, while for others they are a discipline and scientific progression to perfecting body, mind and soul.

Fundamentalism is simply a reaction of the West setting up Puppet Governments, stealing assets from the ME and hence the ME reaction. Cause and Effect of no prosperity and a desperate attempt to fight back. Violence is not the way as Gandhi showed by example. But if you do not think the USA following Britain and France have not been wreaking havoc stealing land and assets since 1948 in Korea, VB, Iraq, Afghanistan, Study. Wake up in the Waking State. KARMA is raining down.
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Schweik
01:36 PM on 11/30/2010
I am reminded of a quip a famous writer made to his editor: " Sorry, my letter is too long. I am in a hurry. Had I more time, I'd make it shorter.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
09:30 AM on 11/30/2010
Schweik is so scientific he HE HAS NO BONE TO PICK

What did science know 6000 or 2000 years ago. Scientist like Einstein had know problem with these early writing and as I say the word are relative unless you have a bone to pick.
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Schweik
01:43 PM on 11/30/2010
Your point is confused.
There was no "science" 6,000 years ago.

"Science began with the WHOLESALE adaptation of the Scientific Method as late as the 18th century. Up until then, there were only isolated instances of its application. With corresponding lack of progress in knowledge. Only separation between theology and inquiry freed human knowledge to expand to such an amazing extent.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
10:07 PM on 11/29/2010
Very remarkable post. Although I feel I have been comment on much of this same topic for some time here on HP and I know very well the bipolar side you first mentioned. I find it very refreshing and thanks for even a broader constituent of spiritual people and views.

I speak a lot of Christ because He was so misunderstood to me. Although I had glimses of his spiritual side, Sermon on the Mount, etc.. It was not until I became a yogi and followed my Christian Yogi teach that I understood how the entire New Testament is spiritual for all mankind. Very Buddhist, Krishna and Mohammad. Not the old testament at all. So I over speak Christ because none of us knew what I see in his direct speech. So much of these word as few as are spoken today were simply used to control instead of inspire or daily live. The true living Spirit.
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Schweik
10:45 PM on 11/29/2010
There's nothing wrong with rehashing Paramahansaji Yogananda Self- Realization Fellowship's doctrine. This Hinduism based sect is rather benign. I am not sure that your focus on Jesus is consistent with the teaching.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
09:26 AM on 11/30/2010
You obviously do not know Yogananda. He was the first Yogi to come to the WEST to teach the science of religion that Christ, Buddha, Mohammad and Krishna taught the same enlightenment. Uniting Western Science and Eastern Philosophy scientific methods or enlightenment.

Notice I leave Moses off. That is not Yogananda, but me. I see no teaching in the Old Testament. Simple Dogma Only without a method to achieve enlightenment. But then maybe it written incorrectly or hidden form the rest of us. It also distorts the battle of EVIL (dark side) and GOOD (the light). But this would not be the first time MAN took what he wanted for his SELFISH desires. Look around the USA today. DarthVader LIVES in the material body
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Schweik
04:52 PM on 11/29/2010
When The Bible and Koran says the Earth is 6,000 years old and scientific data proves it about 4.5 billion, the multi-culturalists act indignant at the uncouth and impolite scientists unwilling to respect the feelings of the Creationists and split the difference half-way.
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Mikdow
Curse you, Mansquito.
05:55 PM on 11/29/2010
To suppose that the universe is devoid of any kind of volition is just as wrong as to suppose that a sky fairy micromanages the existence of all things. Time itself is a concept with ultimately no meaning when divorced from an observing entity. In short, no one knows what is really going on. We simply attempt to create models for ourselves that roughly fit that which we have observed. It's a work in progress.
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Schweik
06:08 PM on 11/29/2010
"no one knows what is really going on."
There's a degree of truth in that statement.
But it is beyond debate that scientists know more ( a lot more) of reality than those who rely on 3,000 year old myths and fairy-tales ( to a modern person) explicated in the Bible and the Koran That is beyond debate too.
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Mikdow
Curse you, Mansquito.
01:24 AM on 11/30/2010
I said, "To suppose that the universe is devoid of any kind of volition is just as wrong as to suppose that a sky fairy micromanag­es the existence of all things."

You said, "It is precisely this kind of neo -liberal dissimulation that we struggle against."

Why this didn't get posted I don't know. I certainly don't take offense, though I would like to answer you.

A pantheist like myself makes many of the same arguments against a personal god as do atheists. The nuances present in sufficiently old belief systems, or non-belief systems if you prefer, such as pantheism and atheism preclude making any general statements beyond the obvious: pantheists believe in some sort of God and atheists do not.

If by neo-liberal dissimulation you mean giving credence to esoteric sixteenth Dutch philosophers such as Spinoza I must register some confusion. It was upon the back of Spinoza that much of atheist philosophy was built.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
10:19 PM on 11/29/2010
First, I would say the Old and New Testament are different and written from different sources. Second the symbolic and literal writing are really debatable. Only someone trying to steal a point would twist the argument in their favor. What did science know 6000 or 2000 years ago. Scientist like Einstein had know problem with these early writing and as I say the word are relative unless you have a bone to pick.

An exciting example is if you look at the similarities of the major religious philosophies of Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad and Christ. 7 candle sticks and 7 chakras, Om SAT TAT and Father, Son and Holy Ghost with 4000 years between Krishna and Christ. Buddha live "Now and not yesterday or tomorrow" and Christ "Take No thought for Tomorrow". So much more than the bipolar Atheist arguments the post addresses
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02:22 PM on 11/29/2010
Truth Itself Is Reality Itself.
And Reality Itself Is the Only God There Is.
Real (Acausal) God Is
the Intrinsically Self-Evident Reality-Resort of all-and-All —
and the Ultimate Potential and Possibility of all-and-All.

The scientific description of light as an appearance characterized by both "particles­" and "waves" is further explained (and unified) if light is understood (and observed) to be always in a spiral (or helix) form—like the material form of DNA (which is, itself, a direct materializ­ation of the structure of light).

If a spiral-form is seen at its point of rotation (or its crossover joint), it is observable as a "particle"—and if the same spiralform is seen with reference to its limbs of rotation it is observable as a "wave".

So, also, light is observable as both "particle" and "wave"—depending on which phase of its process is observed by attention (or "point of view", or ego-"I") in time and space.

Neverthele­ss, whether light is observed as a "particle" or as a "wave" or as a "string", that observatio­n is, itself, an act of "perspecti­val objectific­ation", wherein and whereby Reality Itself is reduced—by the very act of observatio­n, or understand­ing, or mental fabrication—to a relation of attention, or "point of view", or ego-"I".

Reality Itself Is Not In The Middle
http://www­.dabase.or­g/Reality_­Itself_Is_­Not_In_The­_Middle.ht­m”
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
10:27 PM on 11/29/2010
Here too there is so much common between science and the great philosophers. Now the are even saying the DNA is all from the same tree of life. WOW. And all cells have a consciousness to survive and multiple cells each Consciousness all work towards the organisms sole Consciousness to survive, WOW. Truth and Reality is not inconsistent at all form all these philosophies.

What a world if life, liberty and pursuit of happiness began and ended with the individual spirit. What I read from Jefferson constantly in the Declaration of Independence and subsequent writings.
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Schweik
11:10 AM on 11/29/2010
Sane spirituality is a silent spirituality. Those who know, don't speak; those who speak, don't know.
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Mikdow
Curse you, Mansquito.
01:01 PM on 11/29/2010
That may apply to mystics, but most of us like to talk about our beliefs. Churches are good for that. So is the Huffington Post. See, here you are.
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Schweik
01:41 PM on 11/29/2010
The discussion here is the concept of "sane" spirituality. Not sure any organized religion fits this criterion.
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04:46 PM on 12/02/2010
I like HuffPo , it is like a mirror. I say something and a reflection (answer) comes back to me.
Sometimes I don't like the reflection, have to check myself out or the reflection is warped.
Worse the reflection is pleasing and everyone agrees with me THEN I Really have to recheck myself. And there are no churches that would tolerate me.
kellygreen
"Ideology is the Science of Idiots" John Adams
04:29 PM on 11/29/2010
Yes...but silent spirituality is also selfish spirtuality.

If you are going to be of benefit to anyone else, then you must ultimately say SOMETHING.

Where people lose the thread is not that they speak....but believe that anything that they would say is Absolute Truth. Those who speak---and believe that anything that comes out of their mouths is Truth----don't know.

Those who speak---and realize that whatever they say will ultimately miss the mark---can be of service in helping others to find their own way to the experience of that is True.
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Schweik
05:39 PM on 11/29/2010
It is impossible to reach any level of personal spiritual ( for the lack of a better term) development by consent decree or via public debate.
It only be reached through intense personal introspection. Bantering and/or debating about personal spiritual development is of marginal help, at best.
08:26 AM on 11/29/2010
To say that the middle belief in more right than the extreme belief is not helpful. To say that you have a vision that no belief makes you right and on top and entitled to coerce your neighbor IS helpful. It's not about the beliefs, but about what people do with them. That's what the bill of rights is about.
kellygreen
"Ideology is the Science of Idiots" John Adams
08:48 AM on 11/29/2010
You are both saying the same thing.

Moderation in one's beliefs is about how one relates to what one believes....and how one relates to what one believes is the foundation of what one believes is acceptable to do with one's beliefs.

If one starts out believeing that NO single system of thought has a monopoly on the truth (which is the source of moderation) one is very unlikely to believe that one has a right (or need) to impose that view upon others.
09:09 AM on 11/29/2010
But it's still not about how moderate one's beliefs are. The US was populated by people with decidedly NOT middle of the road beliefs, who were often persecuted for their beliefs in their home countries. Not every evangelical christian is trying to force their beliefs down other people's throats. Some are. Not every atheist is doing their best to rid the world of religion. Some are. To say that there is some virtue in being in the class of moderate christians or moderate secularists is off point and committing the same "should" as saying that every person "should" be an evangelical christian or every person "should" be an atheist.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
10:35 PM on 11/29/2010
I do not disagree in he waking state activity. In the spiritual state of bliss and joy that energy you bring back to the waking state does not require waking state driven activity, simply the reflection of the bliss and joy to those you meet beyond body and mind consciousness and expression
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MohammedAbbasi
Co-Director, Association of British Muslims
05:39 PM on 11/28/2010
The vast majority of people are sane, the insanity is within those who believe themselves to so enlightened that they persecute others who in their eyes are not as enlightened as they
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Schweik
02:18 AM on 11/30/2010
In another word--Shariat
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
09:16 AM on 11/30/2010
Old testament is not the knowledge of the great sages
03:19 PM on 11/28/2010
"Why didn't you tell us sooner, Sam?"

I came across an interview with Sam Harris years ago where he discussed his meditation practice. He seemed to feel that it's important to change the terminology to disassociate it from its Buddhist roots (which of course has its roots in Hinduism). He still manages to demean Buddhists while practicing Buddhist meditation, showing no tolerance for any religion in The End of Faith. My beliefs have evolved dramatically over the years because of meditation and I have reason to believe that they will continue to evolve. It will be interesting to see where Sam Harris ends up.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
04:33 PM on 11/28/2010
I read Harris the same as you. He seems to have taken on the task of "separting the wheat from the chaff" in the Dharmas, while its unclear, to say the least that he has the sort of knowledge, experience and polymath like expertise required to attempt this.

Many, but not all people who profess to be "atheists" don't bother to distinguish between the Dharmas and the Monotheisms when they insist on lumping them together under the rubric of "religions". Unfairly, the non-dual, inclusive, synchretic Dharmas are not distinguished from the dualistic, exclusivist, supremecist monotheisms, not to mention the canyon like gulf between these two as to the violence, forced conversions, dogma, destruction of others' sacred sites and places of worship carried out in history. These "atheists" should educate themselves, and they would find that their oppressors are not the Dharmas, that the Dharmas too have been historically, but to some extent even now, been denigrated by the official power structure of the monotheisms, for the reason that the Dharmas exhort the individual to "see for themselves" rather than kow-tow to belief/dogma/authority.

I find a consonance between the Dharmic call to "see for oneself" and the Western Enlightenment's motto "Dare to know".
06:09 PM on 11/28/2010
Read what Harris has to say about Moderates.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
10:36 PM on 11/29/2010
Is that not ones journey. Making the lesson and experience unique to ones soul
03:06 PM on 11/28/2010
Great article, I'm glad to see this 'movement' identified and discussed. I think it's a major trend in this country and the media ignores it. The perceived persecution of Christians and of atheists is getting annoying. The only real gripe that atheists have in my opinion is the requirement that politicians be defined by their religion and I hope this will change. As a gay pagan/Buddhist (for lack of a better definition), I have about as much chance of getting elected to Congress as an outspoken atheist, I don't feel particularly persecuted. The atheists bring a good debate to the table but their spokespeople (Harris, Hutchins, etc) are as intolerant and dismissive as fundie Christians. Most people I know don't want to discuss their beliefs, or lack of beliefs, and have no need to be proven right. It makes for very boring conversation. I suspect that an indifference to being proven right about spiritual beliefs or of atheist/agnostic beliefs is the norm. Only people who feel a need to be right seem passionate enough to end up on the news, or maybe they're motivated by fame and book sales.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
10:49 PM on 11/29/2010
Like you I find most people Play Politics and rarely talk Politic. Same with religion. Unfortunately, this motive is the cause of so much pain today. We always look out side of our ego and blame others for our own destiny and actions.

The media is constantly say we all and polls to propagandize their or payer's point of view, the selling point.

Not unlike you seem to think you fit into a COMMON slot of society. I doubt your accuracy, but respect you point of view. In either case I would attribute to what I just said about play 1 and 2 people do not exercise their will to understand themselves through self study as to what is their nature. Including mind and body, let alone soul. Otherwise they would know not the text book but the methods of all great teachers to find their starting point to begin their journey.

Believe me it is not having a philosophy of a ROCK or flesh of body and mind only or a Name thing. Science and experience will teach anyone by the time they are 20 there is much more than nothing. Not saying Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism both are valid and true paths. As is NomYoHoRingayCoiy or Fulan Guang among so many others. I am sure you are fine, just don't be so limiting to yourself
10:41 AM on 12/02/2010
Limiting myself? Why would you claim to know anything about my beliefs and practices. I could make the same claim about your Yogananda avatar.

What I think is common in society is a relaxed view on spirituality, I don't believe my particular path is common but it's growing as the article under discussion has illustrated pretty well. I believe that most people don't really care about having their beliefs validated and a lot of people are willing to explore any practice that makes them feel more connected, the media only paints a very sensationalist picture, with extremists on both sides insulting one another.
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soma77
Author, Speaker, Retreat Facilitator
12:57 PM on 11/28/2010
Logically, we seem to tell ourselves that we should play it safe and keep with the ideas we have because deep down we do not trust other concepts or ourselves. Following a spiritual path is difficult because of Trust and Faith. We may have faith in God and that all things are united, but not trust that people are ready to hear it or the world is ready for it with all the strife. We may believe God is talking to us in different ways, but then question these intuitions as weird spirit voices. I feel we may trust we are on the right path, but not believe it, if we think others are on the wrong path. I feel to do great spiritual work we need to believe and trust in what we are doing. This is reflected in that we also feel others are doing exactly what they are suppose to be doing at this time. http://thinkunity.com
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
01:16 PM on 11/28/2010
"others are doing exactly what they are suppose to be doing at this time."

Doesn't this harken back to "God's Will" and other dualistic ideas like determinism? A non-dual framework understands the inner voices, transcendent experiences etc as potentially an awakening to one's true nature, rather than communing with a God who is separate from its creation, and thus is also potentially like a puppetmaster whose will must be divined and obeyed. The non-dual Dharmas ask that we recognize that we are all potentially saviours/bodhisattvas, rather than waiting for God to show up. The idea of saviour is a monotheistic one, where the number of saviours is restricted to one, whether God's ONLY son, or the LAST prophet. The non-dual Dharmas seek instead to maximize the number of saviours/bodhisattvas. I think the word "God" gets us into trouble as its a holdover from a dualistic framework, a monotheistic framework. This God that forever seems never to get in the way of toddlers becoming harmed by others, which according to a theistic determinism are only experiencing the harm from another because "they are supposed to be, at this time.".
kellygreen
"Ideology is the Science of Idiots" John Adams
08:58 AM on 11/29/2010
"Duality arises from Unity. But do not be attached to this Unity".

---Seng T'san.

Any concept--at the end of the day--is simply shorthand for referring to a particular experience. As long as one remains in clear connection with what it is that the concept is referring to, then the concept is potentially helpful. Especially when one is trying to communicate.

If one loses that connection....then neither the concept....nor its opposite...is helpful. It conceals as much as it reveals.

Non-attachment and non-duality are guides to getting past the human tendency to experience one's IDEAS about reality, rather than to directly experience reality itself. Avoid falling into the trap that they are any more "reality" than is Duality.

Just like the lenses in a pair of eyeglasses correct misperception....but do not show reality as it really is.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
01:30 PM on 11/28/2010
To add:

Opposed to theistic determinism or a materialist determinism is the notion of causes and conditions being behind whatever is happening right now. If these causes and conditions can be seen, understood then one can attempt to change the causes and conditions and thus lead to desired changes.

In the Dharmas, rather than determinism (God's will), there is instead the notion of Karma. Karma does not refer to destiny, but free will. It means that whatever happens is due to causes and conditions, whether known or unknown. The Dharmas pronounce that free will, rather than determinism or randomness is the correct understanding of how and why things happen they way they do. Thus, there is no "supposed to be this way, right now", unless this is understood as "it was inevitable things are they way they are, given the the causes and conditions in place, which we had/have the ability to change.".