Do Arabs See Israel as a Permanent Fact?

A recent article in the New York Times sums up all that is wrong with the Obama administration's posture toward Israel. The article concerns President Hosni Mubarak's meeting with President Obama. What we first discover is that Mubarak has not visited the United States in five years because of "President Bush's Middle East policy... and criticism of Egypt's political and human rights record."

So what we first discover is that the Obama administration is prepared to overlook the lack of any kind of Democratic progress in Egypt and treat Mubarak as an important visiting Head of State even though he's been a dictator, for nearly 40 years.

The next thing the article shares with us is that Mubarak's message to Obama is that, from the Arab perspective, progress can only be made if Israel agrees to "freeze settlements...and agree to negotiate with all issues on the table including the status of Jerusalem and the refugees." So, in other words, if Israel is prepared to give up its capitol and to allow massive numbers of Palestinian refugees that would basically offset the Jewish character of the State of Israel, are the Arabs prepared to negotiate. In other words if you open the door to ceasing to exist we are prepared to begin speaking.

Over the weekend I was reading Benny Morris' brilliant new book 1948 The First Arab Israeli War and the chapter concerning the UN's resolution 181 which voted for the partition of Palestine in 1947. I came across a quote that sums up the Arab position towards Israel better than anything that I've read. Morris quotes 'Abd al-Rahman 'Azzam, who was the Arab League secretary-general in 1947 who said the following:

"[To the Arab peoples] you are not an [existing] fact. You [the Jews] are a temporary phenomenon. Centuries ago, the crusaders established themselves in our midst against our will, and in 200 years we ejected them....Up to the very last moment, and beyond, they [the Arabs] will fight to prevent you from establishing your State. In no circumstances will they agree to it." But Morris says that "Azzam added that, in the past, the Arabs had "once had Spain, and then we lost Spain, and we have become accustomed to not having Spain....Whether at any point we shall become accustomed to not having a part of Palestine, I can not say."

This sums up the Arab posture better than anything else. It is only when the Arabs accept Israel as a permanent and unassailable fact that they will come to terms with Israel and make peace, just as they were forced to do with their loss of Spain which the Muslims had held on to for hundreds of years prior to the Catholic reconquest. That will not happen if Israel does not establish facts on the ground that demonstrate once and for all that it is here to stay. This is the reason why Arab governments press so hard against settlements. The less there is of Israel the easier it is for them to accept that Israel will be like a crusader state in their midst, established for a period of time but ultimately destined, G-d forbid, to disappear.

I just came back from a Mayonot trip to Israel where I met AIPAC representatives who were my friends at AIPAC who were guiding both the republican and democratic delegation of Freshman congressman and they were showing them that by the Obama administration's definition of settlement this would include even apartments in the Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem who would not be allowed to add rooms for natural growth as babies were born. Clearly a policy like this is not just wrong headed but discriminatory. It would put limits to where Jews can live. No wonder then that polls are showing that 90% of Israelis are opposed to President Obama's policies, which is interesting given that Israel is so evenly divided between right and left and they all seem to agree that Obama has just lost the plot on his efforts for peace in the Middle East.

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Comments

[Aussieposter]

Right Wing
Likud-21%
Yisrael Beiteinu 15%
National Union 3%
United Torah Judaism 4%
Jewish Home 3%

Total 46%

Left Wing
Israeli Labor Party 13%
Hadash 4%
Meretz 3%

Total 20%

Centre parties
Kadima 23%
Shas 11%

Total 33%


Arab parties
Ballad 3%
United Arab List 4%

Total 7%

Note: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3654866,00.html

Arab parties disqualified from elections

Yet still they got 7 %

Israel has taken a right turn. If the left wing parties are ever going to regain power they will only do it with the arab parties. Who even with questions about being banned picked up 7% of the total vote. I am assuming that the ban was overturned in the high court.

[MemoryAlpha]

Unfortunate Observations:
Like with the United States, everything that /is/ actually good about Israel came from the left wing -- socialized medicine, for starters. And they have turned their back on that much more thoroughly than those of us in the United States have.

Supposition:
We will be very, very lucky if we never become as right wing extremist as Israel is becoming.

[MemoryAlpha]

Assessment:
Excellent post, analysis with hard facts. Marked as Favorite.

[courtb]

Arab parties were not disqualified. The Supreme Court overturned that and the Arab parties were a part of the election.

[Aussieposter]

Aron Cohen wrote:

“"genetic distances obtained by using DR-DQ generic typing allele frequencies (Table 3) illustate that Ashkenazi Jews, Iranians, Cretans, Armenians,Turks and non-Ashkenazi Jews are the populations closest to the Palestinians, followed by the other Mediterraneans population­s." Pg 894”

If you are saying that Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians have a common ancestry agreed.

http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=52

“Palestinians, however, differ from other Arabs in some ways. As the web site for Harper's Magazine reported, one study showed that Jews and Palestinians have common ancestry that is so recent that it is highly likely that at least some of the Palestinian blood actually descends from Jews. [3] Another study by New York University confirmed a remarkable similarity between Jewish and Palestinian genes. "Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham," said Dr. Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University School of Medicine, who worked on the study. "And all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years”

So what does that mean. The Jews of Israel have common ancestors with the Arabs of Palestine. Essentially you are kicking one side of the family out of the house because they changed their faith.

[JanetBW]

I think we should ask Rabbi Shmuley Boteach if he believes if the Arabs are human beings. How could colonial movements such as Zionism justify stealing the land of the native inhabitants if they didn’t view them as less. Let’s not forget that the Zionist after all that came up with the slogan “a land without people for a people without land”.

[ModernTimes1]

Extreme stereotyping and skewed perspective has overwhelmed your mind. Come back to reality.

[MemoryAlpha]

Observation:
Why is it no surprise you have no reply except a personal attack.

[ModernTimes1]

HuffPost's Pick

First sentence. A prime example of petitio principii fallacy. Roughly explained as arguing for a conclusion which is implicit in the statement itself. A classic!
The rest i is just solipsistic fantasy.

[ForeverXL]

Awesome.
Def. one of the best posts I have read so far.

[Goefel]

The irony is that many Jew's, like this Rabbi, believe that people who have lived on Palestine's soil for a thousand years, are the occupiers of Jewish land! It is unique that this debate is never heard, since it is so laughable. Often you'll hear, God gave us the land. Did he give you your corrupt politicians also? Israel has as much right to the land as Koreans. To destroy the lives and culture of the people that existed there for so long, indicates the rotten nature of Israel's core expansionist policies.

[lasublime]

Exactly, I don't see many who stand up for this theft proposing that the Europeans occupying these united states give the land back to the original inhabitants.

[Justtellthetruth]

The answer is very simple. Israel's internationally recognized borders are the 67 borders. Anyone Israeli who lives over that line must either accept exclusively Palestinian citizenship or they must leave, as is the case in any nation. That includes East Jerusalem and the entire west bank. The IDF must leave entirely and in perpetuity.

If this is achieved, there are almost no problems left to negotiate. The hundreds of thousands of Palestinian in other countries can return to the Palestinian state, and Israel can pay reparations for the property lost that lies behind the green line. There can be Mostly Arab UN peace keepers in Palestine whose job it would be to keep the Palestinian factions away from the border and the Israeli settlers and IDF out altogether. The US can support a Palestinian economy and government until they stabilize on their own.

The anwser is simple. Get the settlers out. They are morally indefensible and the settlements are an affront to any nation that vaules human rights and international la., Finally, they stand in direct opposition to the values that virtually define the US.

[ModernTimes1]

This pretty much what Camp Deal deal was all about. Not exactly, but close. Arafat turned it down flat. (Don't argue, he did). And was met with jubilation by Palestinains. And utter disbelief in the world capitals.
Arafat solution: to fund PLO style terror campaign to pressure Israel into a better deal. As Israelis peaceniks watched in dismay. Israeli electorate refused Arafat's vicious gambit and elected Sharon instead. Arafat gambled and lost..
Palestinians and Israels have been a steep price of his myopia.

Forward to Aug. 2009.
Under the giant poster of Arafat ( not a good sign) P-nians announce 14+ preconditions to begin(!) talks.
A clue for anyone who ever made a deal. When the weak side begins with preconditions they're not interested in the deal.
Any questions?

[JanetBW]

ModernTimes1 Camp David was an attempt to lock the Palestinians up into a series of Bantustan with no rights.

A list of Isreal precondions laded out by Netanyahu

Palestine will be demilitarized: and have no army
Palestine will not have control of its boders
Palestine will not have control of its airspace
Palestine will not be able to forge military pacts
Palestine will not get East Jerusalem: as it’s capital
Palestine will have continued Israeli settlements
Palestine will not have the right to choose their own leaders
Palestinians must recognize the right of the Jewish people to kick them out of their traditional homeland

So tell me ModernTimes1 if Israel can have their list of preconditions which basically makes a mockery of the whole peace process why shouldn't the PLO respond in kind.

[Justtellthetruth]

could not have said it much better than Janet and Memory. "Don't argue, He did". Hilarious, you now want to distort the facts with impunity and demand that others not call you on your OBVIOUS distortions.

Let me just add this; There is not a single other nation on earth configured in the way that was proposed to Arafat. Why? Because NO ONE would ever accept such conditions.

Israel must remove all settlers and IDf from the west bank and east jerusalem.

That is the only path to peace.

By the way, you are aware that Arafat is DEAD and the current leadership would be HAPPY to accept the deal I laid out above? I think Arafat would have taken it too.

[MemoryAlpha]

Query:
Did France and Poland consider Germany a permanent fact?

[ModernTimes1]

Yes

[ForeverXL]

Vichy France definitely did.
Poland I am not sure, but being the playball of Russia, Habsburg Kingdom and Prussia before, they sure had little hope that they actually would one day be a sovereign state for longer than a couple of decades.

[MemoryAlpha]

Query:
So how much of a majority in France and Poland speak German today?

[lasublime]

Vichy gov't! Was considered to be illegal. They were traitors are hardly represents France. And yes, I know about the collaborators.

[S1m0n]

The attempt to build a nation reserved for jews (whether classified as race or religion) in a land with a mixed demography is a fundamentally flawed and futile proposition. Like any tragic hero, its very nature contains the fatal flaw which will one day be its doom. It cannot succeed in the long run.

Such a state will exist in a perpetual crisis of legitimacy until a) the constitutional bias toward jews and judaism is abandoned, or b) the populatiion is somehow homogenised. No other outcomes are possible.

Given the disparity in birthrates*, outcome a) will occur once the population of Israeli arabs begins to approach that of the present jewish majority. Outcome b) is less likely: for it to occur, a substantial campaign of ethnic cleansing and/or genocide has to take place.

*As everywhere else in the world, this disparity is purely a function of relative wealth. It has been demonstrated over and over that economic development and (particularly) female education is the route to a lower birth rate. As long as arabs are second class citizens in Israel, they will have more children than those of the first class.

[ModernTimes1]

Israel is not just "reserved" for Jews. You're seriously misinformed on the subject. Israel is a multi- cultural state where 30% of the population is not Jewish. Yet it retains a uniquely Jewish character, by intent. Yes it is difficult for Americans to understand. But not difficult for people who grow up in countries with strong national character.
No one with even a modicum of reason would level an accusation of racism on Irish who want to preserve dominant Irish culture. Or Saudis who vigilantly maintain dominant Islam-Arab character to their country. Or Germans who like German culture and language to be preeminent.
Think and lose your bias.

[MemoryAlpha]

Highly Amused Observation:
"Lose your bias" coming from the extremist European who believes Islam has displaced Judaism as the threat to European "purity."

[ForeverXL]

You are so right.
Americans have their mouth full about the nationalist character of European nations and that of others, while 1)US is perhaps the most nationalistic country in the world with all their flag waving and other stuff. 2) if there is one that "has no right" to be nationalistic it is the Americans as they WIPED OUT almost all native inhabitants. So much for 'their moral superiority'.

p.s. it is really tiring to argue with these people. I admire your persistence ModernTimes1.

[trccommission]

"this would include even apartments in the Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem who would not be allowed to add rooms for natural growth as babies were born. Clearly a policy like this is not just wrong headed but discriminatory. It would put limits to where Jews can live."

I'm sure Israel is just as benificent in allowing Arabs (Muslim and Christian) to live in other parts of Jerusalem or perhaps settling in Israel proper? I'm sure there are absolutely no impediments (economic/­legal/soci­al) to their purchasing of housing in so-called Jewish quarters? Call a spade a spade, what's going on is very similar to the clearing of area 52 in 1950's Cape Town. The creeping bantustanisation of formerly Arab areas of the West Bank and East Jerusalem is creating the sort of facts on the ground that we saw in 1990's Bosnia. Where is your outrage when Arab's cannot get planning permission to renovate or extend their homes, but when Israelis aren't permitted to extend their homes in Illegal settlements this is discrimination. The chutzpah.

[BrainDart]

"That will not happen if Israel does not establish facts on the ground that demonstrate once and for all that it is here to stay."

Tel Aviv, West Jerusalem, Haifa, Eilat, Tiberius, Nazareth, Beersheba, .... aren't they facts on the ground?

Based on your logic, the more a country expands the more secure it is. Other than a few empires, the reverse seems to be more the case: the expansion inevitably leads to war; is even a main cause of war.

[FearlessFreep]

If an illegal Israeli settlement is a "fact on the ground," so is the body of a murdered Israeli colonist.

[ModernTimes1]

And so are Gaza pacification, freep.
You who wish to fight till last Palestinian standing have nothing to add to this debate.

[Aron Cohen]

What tree of facts?

You are "cherry-picking".

Show peer-reviewed proof.

Oh but you cannot?
Ah, what I thought.

[ModernTimes1]

Read Bernard Lewis. The preeminent Orientalist of the century.

[TheBaffler]

Edward Said is the premiere expert on such matters. Even a dead Said possesses greater insight than Lewis does.

[MemoryAlpha]

Amused Observation:
The fact that you are using the dated term "Orientalist" says everything that needs to be said about your perspective.

[greatscot]

Israel's "Capitol" (sic) is Tel Aviv, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Taking the long view, Israel will probably not exist in its present form by 2030 because the balance of power is shifting away from the west and to the east. The nuclear weapons that Israel seems to rely on to keep its neighbors in line will be matched soon enough, at which time world powers will hopefully impose a solution, because to do otherwise would be too dangerous for everyone.

A truly enlighhjtned Israeli leader would offer to relinquish all stolen land (ie. return to the 1948 borders) in exchange for complete mutual disarmament and a rock-solid guarantee of protection by Europe, U.S. & Russia. Eventually the formation of a middle-east common market with a common corrency and free trade could be envisaged. It took France & Germany almost 50 years to form an economic and currency union, and if they could do it there is no reason Jews & Arabs can't do it too. The alternative, which looks like the way Israel is headed unless a solution is imposed from outside, will be the re-conquest of undeniably Arab land, by Arabs.

[freerovingbovine]

An interesting conversation regarding the notion that Israel is a temporary Crusader entity, and eventually Islamic States, will never accept Israel as they reluctantly accepted Spain, and perhaps less so reluctantly accept any of Christiandom.

One must first understand that except for Islam, there are no theocracies in the rational world, and unless Islam moves beyond theocracy, they will remain the poorest, most backward place, and people of the world. Barely able run their own affairs much less dominate a modern state.

[Brewerstroupe]

Given that Jewishness embraces divergent races, what constitutes a "Jewish State" other than its common thread - Judaism?

Or did you not intend to include Israel in the "rational world" ?

Most Western States nominate "State Religions" in precisely the same way as moderate Islamic States. It should also be noted that, in Islamic States, Judaism and Christianity are specifically included as "Religions of the Book" - hence the "Golden Age of Jewry" under Ottoman rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

[FearlessFreep]

"There are no theocracies in the rational world." Isn't that a tautology?

BTW, is Syria a theocracy?

[ModernTimes1]

"the balance of power is shifting away from the west and to the east."
LOL.
you're talking about the wrong East. The Muslims East has been bypassed it has been backwaters and will remain backwaters for the foreseeable future. The new powers, India and China want absolutely nothing to do with Islamic East. If fact they opposed to it ( except selling them replicable tech and junk for irreplaceable oil and gas.

[MemoryAlpha]

Observation:
You are a complete racist, aren't you? You might as well be talking about China and India in the earlier part of the 20th century, if you'd been alive then.

[ModernTimes1]

"Taking the long view, Israel will probably not exist in its present form by 2030 because the balance of power is shifting away "
From 40s to 70s Israel had been exposed to existential threats at various times.
Today no Arab country is capable of challenging overwhelming Israeli military, economic and hi-tech superiority. And that's a fact.
But enjoy your wait for Saladin Jr.
LOL.

[FearlessFreep]

There was a time when no Arabs could challenge the Crusaders.

[Kirby]

And all of King David's men in AIPAC will not be able to put back together Humpty Dumpty Israel, because Western Gentiles will be more concerned about the dangers to their security and existence that the over existence of an Israel, hell-bent on enlarging itself beyond the 1948 boundaries, brings on. We have in the past been unwilling to contain the control and domination of the extremist Zionists over our political institutions. Let those extremists now launch another war into Lebanon and they will see their little empire begin to crumble when the missiles fall on Tel Aviv.

The answer to this mess is indeed the formation of a middle-east common market, but this will never come about until and unless we first have the courage which we had when we created Israel. We cannot continue to let Israel dictate to the world what it will and will not do, to the detriment of all the rest of us

[altohone]

Building on other peoples land is wrong.
Building on other peoples land is wrong.
Building on other peoples land is wrong.

Agreeing to negotiate isn't giving up anything.
Agreeing to negotiate isn't giving up anything.
Agreeing to negotiate isn't giving up anything.

Yes, once doesn't seem to be enough.

Dishonest presentation from a rabbi otherwise rational is perplexing.

[ModernTimes1]

"Agreeing to negotiate isn't giving up anything."
LOL. LOl. LOL.
"Nabil Sha'ath, a Fatah Central Committee said these were some of 14 preconditions for a resumption of €œpeace talks....­"
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/34/Fatah_No_Talks_unless_Israel_Frees_Detainees.html

[JanetBW]

Starting to negotiation with people who won't even agree to most basic of demands, the stopping of building of settlements on land that does not and has never belonged to them, is stupid. And considering the list of preconditions the Israel has I'm amazed you can write the above, well not really cause I know you opinion of the Palestinians.

[TruthJusticeForAll]

So, when are we returning our stolen lands to the American Indians (at least those who survived our genocide against them)?

So, when are we returning our stolen lands to the American Indians (at least those who survived our genocide against them)?

So, when are we returning our stolen lands to the American Indians (at least those who survived our genocide against them)?

Same with every location on earth populated by people who took the land from others.

Same with every location on earth populated by people who took the land from others.

Same with every location on earth populated by people who took the land from others.

Obviopusly, I am correct. I, after all, repeated myself 3 times. lol

[ModernTimes1]

We must use Lebanese, Kuwaiti, Jordanian model for refugees in U.S. The only humane way!
I demand that U.S. place all Cuban refugees in refugee camps and deny them American citizenship and right to work! They must be kept there until Cuba accepts them and all of the their descendants from the rest of the world back and gives them their land back. It will be for their own good, of course.
We must not reward aggression!
Ditto for Germans evicted from Czechoslovakia and France in 1946.

[ModernTimes1]

According to the Bank of Israel, foreign investment in Israel reached an all-time high of USD 21.1 billion.

[Freenation]

among the 21.1 billions how much was transferred by the tax dodgers and cheats from U.S, clue remember the NJ scandal regarding the money laund.deri­ng?

[ModernTimes1]

The investment is from major firms like Berkshire Hathaway, Intel, Motorola etc.
Fact: Israel is the global center of technological, bio medical, environmental and theoretical R& D. Hence the investment.
Deal with it.

[misaacm]

Not only do the Arabs not see Israel as a permanent fact, most extremist Huff Posters agree with them. They feel that 99+% of the land in the middle east is not enough for the Muslims.

[Maysoon Zayid]

huh? I think the fact is more like 20% not 99% and not for Muslims but rather indigineous SECULAR Palestinians not vague scary Muslims...­......

[TruthJusticeForAll]

Indigenous in the Jewish Homeland?

[Wisdo]

"It would put limits to where Jews can live"

yes - In Israel - not in Palestine. I cannot decide to go live in Monaco or Italy without the necessary paperwork and immigration approval. What the Israelis want to do is expand their border every time they build a house. This is of course, unacceptable to the governments of the world.

[ModernTimes1]

"What the Israelis want to do is expand their border every time they build a house."
You have a misinformed notion of the Jewish towns. They do not expand outward but the building is done within the town limits. No new tows have been founded. And if some are started illegally, Israeli police removes them.
Read fewer blogs and more factual information.
Headsup.
People don't wait for politicians. Populations grow. On both sides.
The longer Palestinaisn wait to begin real peace negotiations the weaker their position will be.

They could've had their state in 2001. They chose Intifada instead. Hope they like the results.