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Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

Posted: November 2, 2010 12:36 PM

My debate Monday night in Charlotte, North Carolina at the Southern Theological Seminary was insightful as to why Evangelicals are increasingly politically marginalized. For the record, I am a fan of Evangelicals because they raise strong, faith-based families, serve disproportionately in the military, love Israel, and try and enrich an increasingly materialistic culture with values. But, for goodness sake, what is this obsession with homosexuality?

I debated my long-time nemesis Dr. Michael Brown, one of America's leading Christian scholars, with whom I have a warm and mutually respectful relationship. It was the best of the twenty-odd debates we did: scholarly, contemporary, fiery, and on both sides ferociously-argued (you can see the debate at Shmuley.com). The subject: Is Homosexuality America's Greatest Moral Crisis? Our audience was nearly all Evangelical Christian, and here is where they lost me.

I argued passionately that Evangelicals had become obsessed with homosexuality. They took a single prohibition in the Bible and elevated it to single moral standard besides which all else pales. I pointed out how in 2004, amid President George W. Bush being the most hated man on earth he still won the election because of Evangelical support. The reason: as the polls showed, 22% of all voters had voted for values. But now, on the day of the midterm elections, the Tea Party had completely usurped the place of the Evangelicals. The only thing being discussed in this election was jobs, money, the size of government, and the national debt. In other words, the economy and money. Not one major values-based issue was even on the table. Why? Because the people who talk about values and are a large voting block -- primarily Evangelical Christians -- had utterly marginalized themselves with their obsession over homosexuality. Forget about the fifty percent divorce rate, the growing sexualization of young teens (Miley Cyrus is now pole-dancing), the collapse of the American economy because of addiction to shopping; no, all the problems in America can be laid at the feet of gays. And if we stop the gay agenda, then America will suddenly be transformed into a family-friendly, spiritually rich, Eden-like Shangri-La.

I could not move them. Try as I might, my audience would not budge. Even when I told them that I came down to Charlotte not primarily for a debate but to plead with my Christian brothers and sisters to recapture their relevance, they stood their ground. They were proud of it. No compromise with sinners. We'll go down with the ship if that's what Jesus wants from us. By hook or by crook, America will be moral. Homosexuality will be stopped.

But didn't Jesus say 'Judge not that ye not be judged'? Did he not say that all are sinners? And was I not saying that they have a right to regard homosexuality as a sin but not to tell gays and lesbians that they have crossed some imaginary line and now can have no relationship with G-d? Did not the same Bible that labeled homosexuality as being in contravention to the divine will not also say that 'It is not good for man to be alone,' and should we not be telling gays and lesbians who have no attraction to the opposite sex that there are hundreds of commandments in the Bible left for them to keep? No, homosexuality represented the fall of American morality and the breakdown of common decency.

The point of no return was when Dr. Brown said that in terms of sinfulness homosexuality was the same as bestiality, incest, and pedophilia. I should have been thrilled at the comparison. Dr. Brown spends most of his time trying to convert Jews to Christianity and I should have welcomed this act of self-immolation. Instead, because he is a friend and, amid our profound disagreements, a refined gentleman, I pleaded with him to come back from the brink. I repeated over and over again that this debate was being recorded for posterity and he would irreversibly damage his credibility with thinking people everywhere if he made the insane comparison. But rather than relent, he instead asked the audience members to raise their hands if they agreed he had come across as an extremist. Amid hundreds of people, only three hands went up. My heart sank. This is a community I admire. I lecture to Christian groups all over the world. We need their voice in the American values debate. Religious Christians are people of inspiring faith. But by supporting the comment that homosexuality was akin to pedophilia and bestiality they too had crossed a line. And it would be difficult to come back.

What is needed are Evangelical Christian leaders who finally change the subject and focus us on what really can be done to save the American family, namely, strengthening marriage, reducing the divorce rate, increasing male respect for women, and pushing for a congressional bill to make marital counseling tax-deductible so that couples who need help can afford it and keep their families intact.

Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is widely regarded as one of the world's leading relationship experts and heads This World: The Values Network, an organization dedicated to promoting universal Jewish values to heal America. He has just published a book on Jewish spirituality for non-Jews called Renewal: A Guide to the Values-Filled Life. Follow him on Twitter @RabbiShmuley.

 
 
 

Follow Rabbi Shmuley Boteach on Twitter: www.twitter.com/RabbiShmuley

 
 
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12:13 AM on 11/11/2010
Some might argue that gays should not be married because the term “marriage” has a religious connotation and the religious nuts our there argue that it is offensive. The question must be asked, Are gays not allowed to believe in God? That doesn’t seem very Christian.
12:29 PM on 11/11/2010
It is not only offensive, but it is also a sin to be gay or lesbian; as some very religious people believe, but you raise a very good question. Also, what if gays do believe in God and are amazing and truly good people, does God still not love them just because they are gay? I do not see why someones' sexual orientation should effect their relationship with God.
02:01 PM on 11/10/2010
Old ways are meant to be broken. This has stood the test of time in all aspects of society. When horizons are broadened and barriers are broken, progress improves ten-fold. I understand that the older generations as a whole may not get used to the idea of gay marriage, just like many people in the older generations still are not satisfied with having a black president or a woman president. The United States of America is a great country, but we have done some very un-great things. Through acceptance the people of this country have broken down barriers and paved the way for true equality.
03:01 PM on 11/10/2010
I don't think old ways need to be broken; they merely need to be revised or modernized. However, your point of breaking and broadening barriers is extremely important. There is so much controversy modern day, that challenges will absolutely be made to people's values and judgment. I feel that the older generations may not agree to the whole idea of gay marriage, but they must accept that society and people around them and their views are changing. True equality would be amazing if it was reached, however, in the meantime it seems very far away from the realm of possibility. Acceptance seems to be the most feasible solution at this point with gay marriage--not just in the US, but worldwide.
09:55 AM on 11/15/2010
I agree that old ways are meant to be broken. The world is like riding a bike, if it stops moving forward it will crumble.
02:01 PM on 11/10/2010
I do understand that many people do not take the subject of religion lightly. The Bible does in fact say that homosexuality is a sin, and so I understand why evangelicals are personally against that lifestyle. People who live by the Bible choose to be free of sin. This is interesting because having said that, the bible also mentions other sins that are to be just as devious as homosexuality.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. " 1 Cor. 6:9-10
If I were a betting man I would say that more than half of the people who say homosexuality is a sin, have ‘sinned’ in other ways described in The Bible. Too many people in the world take a position on a debatable topic and thus rule every other opinion as being wrong before researching it. I know many closed minded people who once are convinced of something, will search for reasons to support it as opposed to doing the research before hand and then taking a personal stance. This type of closed-minded thinking creates denial of the truth, unnecessary ignorance, and kills eagerness to learn. I do not see where one person’s sexual and private life impedes on someone else’s life.
01:04 PM on 11/10/2010
Also, not just religion should be brought into the argument. Media has a huge impact on society.New organizations have been formed to voice their opinions. One group, FCKH8, speaks out against Proposition 8, and that people love each other, and say that, “If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get one”. This issue has exploded over the Internet and people are beginning to post blogs and video blogs about assorted gay marriage rights topics. A girl on her YouTube channel, presents an interesting concept. She tells a story about a ‘what if’ scenario, what if the majority of people were gay, and it was looked down upon to be of heterosexual orientation. She hits on points about how they feel awkward in school, the disappointment of their family, and the discrimination they may face. Just because ‘Joey’ likes girls doesn’t mean that he should be excluded. At one point Joey is talking with his mom, and he tells her of a new girl he is seeing.While it may seem odd that a parent wouldn’t support their child’s happiness, that comment has been said many times to people in the gay community about their partner. The concept is paralleled to the current issue of discrimination against homosexuality. Her argument helps shed a new light on the necessary rights of gay marriage and embracing all types of love. The Internet has posed both a weapon and a tool for the exposure of gay rights and marriage.
01:55 PM on 11/10/2010
the media's impact on society is exactly how movements gain momentum and become successful. You will never please everyone, but in all honesty America is victim to bandwagons. when enough people announce the innocence of homosexuality i think the anti-gays will question whether what they stand for is 'wrong'.
03:06 PM on 11/10/2010
I sincerely hope that this is the case. While I don't want for people to support gay marriage because everyone else is, it would be great to challenge people's views. With the media and internet, anything can be open to exposure. I know when I was shown both video's by a friend, I showed them to at least 5 other people. The media helps not only expose important issues, but often times throw it in people's face. While that may not be the best approach to gain support, the fact that the information and opinion is out there is quite important.
01:01 PM on 11/10/2010
According to a poll conducted by the Pew Forum, in 2010 42% of people supported gay marriage, and 54% opposed it. However, in previous year, only 37% supported gay marriage—quite a jump to make within just one year. Whether it has been current issues which change peoples’ opinions on gay marriage, or just a new age group of voters, the statistics are changing quickly. It has been found that people born after 1980 have supported gay marriage in the past few elections. A generational gap has been shown with the issue, and as the youth is beginning to vote, the support or opposition to gay marriage will be impacted. While everyone may not support the topic, it is necessary that people stay well informed, and that way can make educated votes when they must vote on the issue.
12:41 PM on 11/10/2010
Religion and gay marriage are like water and oil – they will never mix well.
This debate about gay marriage will go on for many years to come based on the fact that the different religions, and people, that make up the diverse community of America, view the idea of ‘marriage’ differently. With that said, the main objectors to same-sex marriages seem to be the most ‘moral and righteous’ Americans. Government is not the objector to legalizing same-sex marriages; in fact, they encourage it. For instance, many governments believe marriages, of any kind, often provide a more secure environment for raising children (Religious Tolerance).

On the terms of homosexuality in general, religious conservatives view, “[it] as recognized as [a] chosen, sexual behavior, unnatural, abnormal, disordered, sinful, hated by God, changeable, and perhaps worthy of criminalization” (Religious Tolerance). Therefore, homosexual people are considered as sinners. In addition, to homosexual ‘behavior’, religious peoples’ view of marriage, “is for procreation, and homosexuals do not procreate, therefore [they] should not be able to marry” as said in Jonathan Rauch’s book. With this in mind, I believe people are forgetting what both marriage and religion are truly about.
03:10 PM on 11/10/2010
You make a very good point about the skewed definition of 'marriage'. It is different in many different ages and cultures. To me personally, I feel that marriage should be allowed for anyone who is in love and very committed to their partner. If there is data that suggests that marriage provides a more secure environment for raising kids there is even more of a reason to support gay marriage. Regardless if gay couples bring up a child or not, it doesn't mean that others should keep them away from their happiness.
06:07 PM on 11/10/2010
I completely agree that marriage should be allowed for anyone who is in love and whose lives would truly be complete with each other. With exceptions to people who want to marry inanimate objects or their pets; that cannot be love at all. I agree with religious traditionalists who fear that this may happen if same-sex marriage is legal; marriage should simply be between two people who love each other.
06:00 PM on 11/10/2010
Also, I want to add, I think many religious conservatives should reevaluate what the goals of their religion are. This applies to most religions: it is not to condemn G-D’s people, especially since nobody is sinless. Yet, if they claim they are sinless then they should look to the Bible, or any other religious book, to tell them otherwise. It can also tell them that only G-D can condemn people for their sins. No hardcore-religious-loving-follower can tell a gay or lesbian they are going to hell for their “choice”. That is only up to G-D to decide because He knows the truth of what will become of everyone after death.
07:45 AM on 11/05/2010
While it is true that Romans 1 condemns gay sex, Romans 1:29 condemns GREED, and states that those guilty of greed deserve death. While I am not politically correct about gays, I regret that those preachers who quote Romans 1 do not quote three verses later Paul's condemnation of GREED. GREED has done far more to corrupt our society than gays have ever done. Besides, the Bible also condemns straight sex out of marriage (which is nearly universal today) far more times than it condemns gay sex, but conservative preachers rarely preach such biblical teachings today because they don't dare to. Our current illegitimacy rate of 41% shows that straights are responsible for much social blight.
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brahdog
hello walls
02:40 AM on 11/06/2010
"While I am not politically correct about gays"

meaning
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Janicot
Been to paradise, never been to me...
08:55 PM on 11/04/2010
Rav Shmuley, I really, really really appreciate your open and honest attempts at persuading conservangelicals (my own acronym, saves time) that there are bigger fish to fry, but one thing that never seems to merit discussion is the fact that people who don't follow the Abrahamic religions are not (and should not be in a free society) bound by your religious laws and tenets. Why is it so difficult for Jews, Christians and Muslims to simply live and let live without passing judgment? I would never take it personally if you or anyone said "my religion forbids it, so it's not for me" but I have to draw the line at "my religion forbids it, so it can't be for you either." I'm sure you get it, but do you ever stress that point in your debates?
08:53 AM on 12/06/2010
"but one thing that never seems to merit discussion is the fact that people who don't follow the Abrahamic religions are not (and should not be in a free society) bound by your religious laws and tenets. "

I don't think Boteach is interested in imposing Abrahamic tenets on anybody. If you have an example, please cite. Jews as a group are, in fact, pretty uninterested in telling Buddhists, Hindus or Atheists how they should live their personal lives.
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BeninOakland
Don't tell me you love me. Let me guess.
10:40 PM on 11/03/2010
Rabbi- here is another thought. You may not be seeing a much bigger picture:

it's not the progay people that are going to be marginalized. Their numbers will continue to grow, as the anti-gay older generation dies out and what's-the-big-deal younger generations mature, and as gay people come out to their friends and families and continue to push the laws in the proper direction-- the end of this idiotic, stupid, wasteful prejudice.

Nor will it be, for the next 10-20 years or so, the anti-gay crowd. Their numbers will decrease, but slowly as above. But they will decrease, and then they will be marignalized, just like racists are today, Racism is alive and thriving. Just not public.

Do you know who is going to get marginalized soonest? People like you, Rabbi. I know you mean well, your heart is in the right place, you try to to good. and compared to some rabbis i can think of, you are a saint.
08:56 AM on 12/06/2010
You should learn to read instead of allowing your prejudices to make up stuff completely opposite of what was said.

The Rabbi was saying the evangelicals are the ones who are marginalizing themselves. He agrees with you. But that probably goes against your own sense of ideological purity.
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Hirnlego
07:17 PM on 11/03/2010
At least in this case you'll find better friends amongst us non-believers. Like Hitchens.
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John Camp
Husband/Pastor/Scholar
04:19 PM on 11/03/2010
I meant no more damning, sorry.
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John Camp
Husband/Pastor/Scholar
04:17 PM on 11/03/2010
As a conservative evangelical in full time ministry, I think that the rabbi misses the mark about a lot, but his premise is in some ways helpful. The bibles teaching on homosexuality is crystal clear, but what is also clear is that it is no more damning than any other sin. It is in the same class as bestiality, incest and pedophilia, but it is also in the same class as cheating on your taxes, lying to your spouse or showing unjust anger to your brothers. It is enough to separate you from God and make you an object of wrath, but it is also forgivable in Christ. Jesus taught that his followers should judge with right judgment (Jn 7.24) and the basis of that right judgment is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). It must be remembered that the sin if the gay man is more more damning than the sin of the tie wearing deacon who speaks cross words to his wife. Both are lost apart from the grace of God.
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BeninOakland
Don't tell me you love me. Let me guess.
10:37 PM on 11/03/2010
or not.
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talkstocoyotes
11:39 AM on 11/04/2010
I've heard this tack used by anti-gay Christians before; it's solely based on the notion that gays are defective or deficient in some way. And the real sea change in attitudes toward gays is the realization that in the world of reality as we know it, this just isn't the case. But many Christian groups want to have i both ways: they want to cling to a negative view of homosexuality without seeming to be intolerant; thus the mentality of accepting gays as long as they consider their sexuality itself a sin. The Church of Rome has tried that gimmick with a teaching that gays who can't be 'cured" have been "called by God to celibacy." I applaud Rabbi Boteach's efforts but all too many believers think they've got themselves covered by this "all have sinned" approach.

The most likely eventual outcome is that churches will do some rethinking at th exact moment when they're marginalized enough to feel affects at the offering plate. Until then, just more brick walls and more coy evasions.
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John Camp
Husband/Pastor/Scholar
05:29 PM on 11/04/2010
I am 100% intolerant of sin, even and especially my own. I firmly believe that I was called to ministry because I was one of the worst sinners available. I not anti-anyone, I am anti-sin. And if I accept scripture as authoritative for faith and practice, I can't edit out sins based on the whims of society, God's standard always supersedes man's. I would add that churches that change what they teach in response to the level of giving are not churches they are rackets.
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BeninOakland
Don't tell me you love me. Let me guess.
04:11 PM on 11/03/2010
Part 2 of 2: You maintain that homosexuality is a sin, just not so important. It "violates the divine will" but that's OK. Domestic partnerships even though those have no standingoutside of their jurisdictions, are good enough for gay people. Passages in Leviticus and Genesis are actually about homosexuality as we understand it today. Given two completely equal people, straight and gay, the gay one is sinning more by existing.

Here's the problem: you can't have it both ways anymore. The rightwingers will never accept your basic premise. And gay people with a lick of sense won't, either. I'm a law abiding productive citizen of our country. I'm tired of people, even well intentioned people like yourself, telling me I am inferior.

As I've said to you before, the belief that, somehow, gay people are just not the same as straight people is a subtle poison.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
02:08 PM on 11/03/2010
"I am a fan of Evangelicals"
"because he is a friend"
"This is a community I admire"

You repeatedly claim to appreciate these mindless haters. I think this qualifies you as a poor judge of character.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
02:16 PM on 11/03/2010
Well, this Rabbi does tend to be of the position:"Why can't you make the irrational anti-gay things I support sound more *reasonable?!"
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DanGreen
09:29 AM on 11/03/2010
By the way, Rabbi, it's "voting bloc," not "voting block."