More

Featuring fresh takes and real-time analysis from HuffPost's signature lineup of contributors
Ramnath Subramanian

GET UPDATES FROM Ramnath Subramanian
 

Distinguishing Between Shallow and Deep Religion

Posted: 06/12/11 06:11 PM ET

In March 2007, I attended a talk by Dr. Steve Weinberg, the 1979 Nobel Laureate in physics for his work on electromagnetic and weak forces, on the topic "On Religion and Science" at Cornell University. Dr. Weinberg did not mince any words when he vehemently spoke about the hypocrisy and shallowness of religion, citing several evident episodes of scandals and violence in recent religious history.

At the end of his talk, he categorically stated that because of the problems that religion has created, one of the primary aspirations of science should be to cease the existence of religion. He made a strong appeal to the audience to take this seriously.

As a practitioner of Bhakti yoga, an ancient devotional school in the Hindu tradition, I was stung by Dr. Weinberg's strong comments. It felt like an assault on a paradigm that defined my outlook and the people whom I deeply loved and respected. At the same time, my rational faculties knew that Dr. Weinberg's citations were completely based on facts and thoroughly justified. Was I simply being a sentimental religionist turning a blind eye to the problems that religion has created? Or was there a deeper root to my adherence that Dr. Weinberg may not have had a chance to experience?

The key to resolving this conflict lay in one verse from the Bhagavata Purana, one of the primary texts in the Hindu tradition. The verse classifies religious faith or dharma into two categories: peripheral (kaithava) and essential (sanatana).

Gordon W. Allport, a Harvard psychologist, developed a similar scheme and categorized religious practice into extrinsic and intrinsic. The peripheral or extrinsic practice of religion refers to those expressions of faith that are motivated by self-directed desires: personal comfort, riches, power and status. The essential or intrinsic practice of religion is governed by the deep inquiry to uncover our true essence that results in profound personal transformation.

Growing up, my first experience of Hindu religion was extrinsic. I was exposed to Hindu rituals that enabled an individual's economic development and sensory pleasure, respectively known as artha and kama in Sanskrit. My parents taught me to pray twice everyday. The prayers usually were a means to please the gods to give me the best grades, good health and success in all endeavors.

I clearly recollect visiting temples of the elephant god, Ganesha, on the eve of exams, to put in "special requests" because he is an expert at taking away impediments on the path of success. On occasions, when the stakes were high, I paid good money to the head priest for special services. I got more than the expected results every time, expect for one big test where I failed miserably. That failure exposed the conditional nature of my faith.

In course of time, I turned away from the Hindu faith, much to the concern of my parents. I was old enough not to be swayed by them or other religious individuals. Episodes of communal violence fueled by Hindu fundamentalism in the early '90s further strengthened my stance.

It was six years later that a conversation with a good friend unexpectedly reopened the "religious" chapter. Manish was regarded as one of India's young scientific geniuses, but possessed a humble demeanor. In a casual conversation on a Monday evening, he convinced me to accompany him to a talk on the Bhagavad Gita. It was during that talk that I heard for the first time a clear explanation of the primary purpose of religion: deep inquiry and knowledge about our identity and the true purpose of our existence.

The talk systematically and logically pieced together the need for such inquiry and provided a deep philosophical look into the nature of consciousness and our quest for immortality. Sprinkled throughout the presentation were various scientific citations from the Hindu scriptures -- verses explaining a method of plastic surgery from the Rig Veda, the heliocentric model of the solar system from the Bhagavata Purana, and a description of time dilation and relativistic mechanics from the Upanishads.

The speaker was pleasant and humble, yet authoritative and confident. There was no trace of criticism, sentimentalism or fanaticism in his talk. I met with him personally after the presentation and I spent two hours critically questioning his paradigm.

He introduced himself as Radheshyam and his answers were deep and succinct. Although I did not fully accept his paradigm then, I deeply respected his approach and logical explanations. It was refreshing to see such a religious man. I was curious to know more.

In the next four years, I frequently visited Radheshyam's Bhakti Yoga monastery in downtown Mumbai and spent considerable time studying Hindu scriptures with him and his fellow monks. I was a personal witness to the rigor and scrutiny they applied to their scriptural study. The scriptures dealt exclusively with understanding consciousness, its source and its purpose.

Most of the monks had advanced graduate degrees from prestigious universities. Their simplicity and spirit of brotherhood were evident in their lifestyle. Their possessions -- four sets of clothes, some books and some rosary beads -- were neatly stacked away in 3x3 closets. They slept on straw mats on the ground. They lived by one principle adopted from a beautiful verse in the Hindu texts: "Be humbler than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree. Be ready to offer all respects to others and expect nothing in return."

In a conversation when I thanked the director of the monastery for his time to answer my questions, he looked at me with sincere gratitude and said, "I am so grateful that you have accepted me as your servant." The glimmer in his eyes clearly reflected the sense that he would not exchange his lifestyle even for $100 million.

The lives of these monks demonstrated to me a sincere search for truth and reality. Their practice completely contrasted any experience of religion that I previously had. To me, it seemed to be a compelling alternative to science in the pursuit of truth. Their axiomatic basis may be different, but their methods, rigor, logic and dedication were comparable to any true scientist. They strove to live an ego-free life, which gave them clarity and objectivity in their quest. Above all, they were truly beautiful human beings.

Dr. Weinberg's citations were correct and his frustrations justified. But his conclusion that science should destroy religion completely was probably based on his very limited exposure to the intrinsic practice of religion. They probably sprung from his experiences of narrow-minded and ritualistic religious practices that lack philosophical rigor, progression of logic and a transformative lifestyle.

Instead of rejecting religion completely, it would be wise to discriminate between substance and shadow -- and encourage the substance. The pockets where intrinsic religion is practiced may be few, but they hold deep significance especially at a time when religious fundamentalism needs to be addressed with strong action. They may also offer the unique opportunity for science and religion to have meaningful dialogues and finally understand each other.

 
In March 2007, I attended a talk by Dr. Steve Weinberg, the 1979 Nobel Laureate in physics for his work on electromagnetic and weak forces, on the topic "On Religion and Science" at Cornell University...
In March 2007, I attended a talk by Dr. Steve Weinberg, the 1979 Nobel Laureate in physics for his work on electromagnetic and weak forces, on the topic "On Religion and Science" at Cornell University...
 
 
  • Comments
  • 448
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Next ›  Last »  (5 total)
07:17 PM on 06/18/2011
Thank you, Ramnath. Essays like this one give me hope for the world. I myself am a Christian, but I suspect that we two walk together on the path to the divine.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Pradip Gangopadhyay
12:23 PM on 06/17/2011
I agree with the author that deep religion is an inquiry about the nature of consciousness. However, this inquiry should transcend the intellect.

I was a little disappointed by the claim that there is a description of time dilation and relativistic mechanics in the Upanishads. Frankly I do not believe this claim.

Moreover, the author stresses scriptural reading too much. I would think that deep religion would involve spiritual practice like dhyana, japa, puja etc. Scriptural reading is only for the beginners.

"The scriptures are a "mixture of sand and sugar," difficult to distinguish and separate. They are of no use in conveying the feeling of God: "This feeling is something very different from book-learning. Books, scriptures, and science appear as mere dirt and straw after the realization of God." ....."But seeing is far better than hearing. Then all doubts disappear. It is true that many things are recorded in the scripture; but all these are useless without the direct realization of God.''

- Sri Ramakrishna.

Deep religion is about spiritual practice and sustained effort to directly realize God.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
methodman
09:45 PM on 06/16/2011
Selah Singer I actually do sing syllables over mathematica and maple vocabulary. Bread in the Bible I interpret as vocabulary. The funny thing is how inspired I am by the Bible but I can't stand the Clergy and Evangelical Pastors. . Again the way you simplify love God is a betrayal of including form and scope and bringing out your vocabulary. I started as an asrtologer doing a course called Brotherhood of Light which is kind of underpinning language that you can then hang theological constructs on. When you jump into love God and all the cutesy slogan by religion sayings you lose the enterprise of idioms and bridges that create a diving board or an airplane strip. Chemistry Biology have theologies. If people were flexible enough to allow people to bring in discussions Bible Studies might be worthwhile but where I live I have never met so many people that are proud of how few books they buy; they don't; magazines they read; Christianity Today; only and only watch Faux News. You cannot have a conversation, Although I am close to my parents who are Gideons I just have no interest in their Shallow faith. and I don't go to places that don't accept my spiritual practices.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
selahsinger
My micro-bio isn't empty
10:56 AM on 06/17/2011
Method Man can you help me understand this line "Again the way you simplify love God is a betrayal of including form and scope and bringing out your vocabulary­." Not quite sure what you are saying by it, but want to know.
photo
TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
11:11 AM on 06/16/2011
Distinguishing Between Shallow And Deep Religion...

This IS funny...there is no such thing as DEEP RELIGION.... any more than there is a deep Harry Potter story.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
12:33 PM on 06/16/2011
Save your breath Dinosaur... that joke has been already overused... but do come up with something original, entertaining... that would be fun to read.
photo
TYRANNASAURUS
UGH!....people don't taste good.
03:44 PM on 06/17/2011
Yeah......like I'm real interested in worrying about your fun.
photo
HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Ramnath Subramanian
06:30 PM on 06/16/2011
This is even more funny...to comprehensively deny something that you may have not even experienced...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Andres64
Religion is a sectually transmitted disease.
12:44 PM on 06/17/2011
The the Invisible Pink Unicorn? The FSM? Bigfoot?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
freducate
Spirit Naturally Evolving
05:47 PM on 06/18/2011
Instant dismissal, supposedly the hallmark of dogmatic believers is alive and well in dogmatic non-believers. The funny part is that they actually believe they have somehow discredited deep or esoteric spiritual systems by showing how the mythic elements of religion are not literally true. Instant dismissal with a splash of pink unicorns is so much easier than making the effort to understand, so why bother?

The increase in knowledge in consciousness would be so much farther along if they hadn't thrown the baby out with the bathwater. It's frustrating to continually hear that "the study of consciousness is still in its infancy" as an excuse for what they don't know. Yeah, it's still in its infancy because the materialists, on nothing more than a faith-based belief that mind can be fully reduced to brain stunted the growth of the field for years.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Tulka2
Solidarity. Courage. Humor.
05:17 PM on 06/15/2011
I understand why serious humans are so strict and sober in their estimation of the harm religion has done.  I get it, but it leaves out the playful, land ape side of me.  I am a serious Buddhist practitioner and yet i will always knock on wood to awaken the tree's spirit so as to ask her for help just as my Irish grandmother taught me and her grandmother before her.  There's a place for that too. Or.... maybe i am just OCD.  Always a possibility religion is just the compulsive, controlling  side of land apes.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
methodman
01:11 AM on 06/15/2011
The building up of structure God. is a separate vocabulary than the Will of God (action) that is separate from the (services) vocabulary. But sin is cognitive dissonance to deep discovering people. Like I said I'm disqualified to teach Region. Precisely why I am an Ex-Evangelical. I also don't vote Republican that again is the unpardonable sin against God.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
11:13 AM on 06/15/2011
methodman, let me offer my congratulations. You have climbed a metaphorical mountain and now see a completely new vista... the view is better up there. I agree.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
methodman
01:07 AM on 06/15/2011
Get away from Christianity. There is so much h8 for intellect, literacy, spiritual yoga, college education, higher learning, I have to be xenophobic in some way. and I have to vote Republican. They made that bed they can lie in it. I don't care. Seriously The pastors are robots.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
selahsinger
My micro-bio isn't empty
10:37 AM on 06/16/2011
It's heartbreaking that your experience with Christians led you to feel the way you do about them. My experience, for whatever reason, has been very different. I've been surrounded by a group of believers who actively pursue all sorts of knowledge, PHD's in chemistry, biology and philosophy, judges, teachers, artists. I know your experience is all too often the reality of things, but there are sincere Christians who love God and people more than themselves. One of my favorite Christian singers, Derek Webb, wrote this

there are two great lies that I have heard,
the day you eat of the fruit of that tree, you will not surely die”
and that Jesus Christ was a white, middle-class republican
and if you wanna be saved you have to learn to be like Him"

May you find truth in unexpected places.
04:32 PM on 06/14/2011
Nice article. I think that your conclusion however skates over the main point, which is that you liked everything about the new info you got about the religion, except the religious parts. Yes, housed in the tradition of religions are great thinkers and powerful lessons, but those have less to do with religion and more to do with science.
Part of the problem is inherent in the words themselves. All of the discoveries of value in religion can be found without a belief in god(s.) Obviously Dr. Weinbergs criticisms were harsh, but I feel most anti-religious people would lessen their harshness if religion was more like the aspects you cite.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
04:56 PM on 06/14/2011
In the context of Hinduism, which is FREEDOM of choice and conscience rather than the recitation of a creed, the defending a dogmatic theism, or professing a belief with belligerent/violent dogmatism - many colourful and sometimes uniquely weird, non-violent cults are also allowed breathing space, as long they do not harm anyone nor push themselves upon anyone. This is the price of freedom, which Americans and the West know so well, and value above anything else.

Whenever people visit India, they do so for its colour, variety - its like entering an overgrown jungle with myriads of different songbirds everywhere. It is a beauty of plentifulness, rather than being a barren wasteland.

So, the criticisms towards the monotheisms do not apply to Hinduism and Buddhism. One must not cast the net too widely when criticizing "religions". There have been no religious wars launched, no "unbelievers" persecuted, no 'conversions' sought and no free-thinkers/scientists given house arrest, or worse. Please remember to mark these important points, when you criticize "religions"... they are not all the same.
06:41 PM on 06/14/2011
Hey sandalwood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

I can use wikipedia too!!!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
AxisV
Drift on numbered days
07:02 PM on 06/14/2011
"There have been no religious wars launched, no "unbelieve­rs" persecuted­, no 'conversio­ns' sought "

Complete and utter dishonesty and lies.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Orissa-bishop-slams-forced-conversion-of-Catholics-to-Hinduism-19456.html

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DD19Df04.html
photo
michelesda
My micro-bio is empty.
02:21 PM on 06/14/2011
A note on below: looks like I got the definitions of "intrinsic/extrinsic" reversed; my bad.
photo
michelesda
My micro-bio is empty.
02:18 PM on 06/14/2011
Makes me wonder why I have not seen this all along, the "intrinsic/extrinsic" shift. It is the intrinsics of the world, in every age the vast majority of theists, unfortunately, who are always ready to kill and die to rip the rest of humanity down to their own base level, none of which has anything to do with the real extrinsic heart of real religion. As to the extrinsics, their thesis may or may not be in some ways reconcilable with science, but in the last analysis, unless maybe science is to be deified as your God, I'm not sure they would even have to be, or that that part would really matter.
02:40 PM on 06/14/2011
Good point. The extrinsics use religion to build up ego and identity and the intrinsics use religion to dissolve it.
photo
michelesda
My micro-bio is empty.
04:35 PM on 06/14/2011
Hadn't thought of it that way before, but you're absolutely right!
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
01:59 PM on 06/14/2011
It seems like a a gaggle of philosophical materialists has descended upon the comments. They need to understand this, which I have been trying to explain:

QM is a non-deteminisic theory and our best description of how things are. As such, it destroys determinism. But then if we hadn't found QM to be true, it would be case that determinism would be correct. This would mean that everything they have been writing here was already predestined to be written by them - at the big bang. Now, they are free to believe this, and even free to doubt their own free agency, but it doesn't make it a scientifically valid view. Therefore, they are making faith-based, superstitious assertions.

To the materialists: I can only employ rhetoric, I am not an exorcist. You will have to do that part yourselves. I can provide a soft landing, but whether you land on your head or your feet is up to you... but your perch IS slipping away into the abyss.
04:40 PM on 06/14/2011
Just because QM suggests non-determinism does not mean there is no determinism.
Very specific scientific studies on human behavior are against your translation of Quantum behavior to human behavior. TMT details the determinism you deny. And Death Salience shows your motive to hold to such a belief system rather than except your mortality.
Also, your tone is extremely condescending. So apparenlty, religion does not work even if it is correct.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
05:27 PM on 06/14/2011
So you are open to the notion that you are essentially a robot?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Kirk Job-Sluder
04:52 PM on 06/14/2011
The question of whether QM is a non-deterministic theory is a challenging one around which there's not a consensus, as is, of course, the issue of determinism vs. free will. None of the arguments developed so far have been particularly bulletproof or persuasive, so there should be no harm in saying, "I don't know, but it's an interesting question."

Which is what most atheists tend to do when confronted with these issues, admit that they're hard and difficult problems rather than pretend to have a certain answer. Which makes atheism no more a matter of faith than liberal religion, which is equally about the questions rather than the answers.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
05:12 PM on 06/14/2011
But which atheists 'behave' as if they have no free will? None!!!

Everyone can feel deeply and thus act upon the GNOSTIC knowledge that we are free agents. The problem of not being able to fit the concept of choice onto the metaphor of mechanism is what is taught by QM. Thus, we learned that we must let go of the metaphor of mechanism to describe ourselves. QM destroyed Newtonian Mechanics. That the new scientific view is called Quantum "Mechanics" is a historical accident, in that QM actually destroys the metaphor of mechanism, in seeing that determinism is not an accurate description of how things are. This is only surprising to those who had thought that the whole world moves forward as if preprogrammed, predestined by the forces of electro-magnetism etc.

It is impossible, even in theory, to predict the timing of the next radioactive decay event. But even then, we hold onto the FANTASY of someday making a model to describe fully ourselves. NO model will do it, because a model implies prediction, which is impossible... because we are free agents. Everyone knows this.

In the past science told us that animals feel no pain, but the general public thought that was crazy and didn't go along with that. Fact is, there are only a handful of academics in the world who are wondering if indeed we are free agents.
10:52 AM on 06/14/2011
The core teachings of certain religions are genuine, but over the centuries, cultures heap on superstition, reducing the practice to little more than primitive idolatry.
04:47 PM on 06/14/2011
That sounds nice, but what is the core of every religion? And how do we decide which parts espoused represent that core? Jesus commanded to take up swords, Krishna said to Arjuna to go to war agaisnt his brothers, even though Arjuna felt it was wrong, because it was his duty.
If by core, you mean they all have some valid and perhaps "evolved" ideas for the time, I might agree, but since it is a human construct religion is only as good as the people using it and they would be equally good without it, so in the end it really only servers to centralize power, the primary problem with humans.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
05:02 PM on 06/14/2011
The first words uttered by Krisna to Arjuna were "Kuru-kshetra is Dharma-kshetra" meaning this place on which you stand named 'kurushetra' is actually the field of Dharma. Deeply consider where your duty lies, and when a battle of last resort is to be fought.

Gandhi was pacifist, and followed the Gita. But do you think if the British had not left quietly that Indians would have not risen up and thrown them out? There is a limit to pacifism, and that too is an important lesson.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
10:41 PM on 06/14/2011
It is absolutely a human construct, but in Hinduism the human condition is not seen as being a robot... in contrast to the West which has had the misfortune of lurching from one extreme to another; from a Theistic determinism to a Mechanistic determinism... but finally Carl Sagan has pronounced another vision, the same as the Upanishads, that we are Star stuff, that we are the universe looking at itself, that we are reality gradually awakening to itself.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
rounder421
Atheist Cabbie
03:27 AM on 06/14/2011
"They may also offer the unique opportunity for science and religion to have meaningful dialogues and finally understand each other."

I think religion has had all the opportunity in the world to show itself to science. It fails to show anything but regional traditions. There may be some personal value to practicing meditation (If that's what you do) and it may be possible to experience transcendence, But The real problem with religion is that it takes a non-methodological path to 'truth', and it usually requires the devotee to be constantly thinking of the deity, worshiping him, etc. I just don't think that is a healthy way to live your life. As someone else posted, your 'shallow and deep' metaphor is nothing more than a No true Scotsman fallacy.

The fact is, that no religion of any stripe has been able to be coupled with science. Because there is no evidence that any of them are more than complex regional social traditions and have no intrinsic connection to the universe.

Unfortunately my knowledge of Hinduism is not what it should be, so If I am wrong, feel free to correct my thinking. If you're going to claim it as some universal truth, please provide evidence.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
09:33 AM on 06/14/2011
You are indeed conflating Hinduism with the monotheisms, when there are huge differences between the two. The word "religion" is a Western projection onto a worldview of a structure different than a dogmatic theism known as "Hinduism". Here's some more on that... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/sandalwood/hindu-spiritual-paths_b_872246_92072707.html

There are no Hindu protests against the theory of evolution, stem cell research etc., for example.
10:29 AM on 06/14/2011
Oh look they have astrology problems in india

http://nirmukta.com/2010/06/27/pseudoscience-in-the-stars-an-indian-rationalists-experiences-with-astrology/

and is rooted in religion

http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Hindu%20Primer/hinduastrology1.html

who would that thought that!!!
photo
BurtonDesque
Fear a Blank Planet
03:10 AM on 06/14/2011
It is meaningless to talk about 'shallow' or 'deep' religion when no theist can provide any proof at all that their deity or deities have any basis in reality.

Theologies are vast and complex structures built on an imaginary foundations.
04:22 AM on 06/14/2011
Built on language itself, which is intrinsically conceptual, therefore false.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
09:56 AM on 06/14/2011
Well said... this was the point made in the Rg Veda as well:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/sandalwood/what-does-it-mean-to-be-r_b_833987_80603671.html
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
05:41 PM on 06/14/2011
Yep. That point is far more key than most people realize. Some might say "the key".
photo
CodyGirl
Truth is worth pursuing.
02:11 PM on 06/14/2011
So, please tell us, what is the source of your "superior" knowledge & wisdom that qualifies you to judge the foundation of thousands of years of theology throughout human history?
05:01 PM on 06/14/2011
It's funny how anti-science people dismiss scientific analysis of their faith but suggesting a lack of intelligence in the science minded. I thought you were argueing agaisnt science?
Make up your mind. And just because Hinduism has been around a long time, proves nothing. In fact Hinduism is not a thing at all. It is a conglomarate of varying opinions, cultures and traditions very loosly slung together. Many with contradictory points.
Are you suggesting enlightenment is only available to those who study their whole lives or have some special talent for it?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Kirk Job-Sluder
05:03 PM on 06/14/2011
It seems odd to me to repeatedly cite thousands of years of theology, while denying that we've thousands of years of skepticism, doubt, and non-theism within those traditions as well.
ThinkCreeps
Seriously, it's time.
01:53 AM on 06/14/2011
Measuring shallow and deep religion?

You'll need to buy my new micrometer sounding rope. Reads accurately for all relevant depths, from an oil film to a sidewalk puddle.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
OneFish
Various and assorted mutualistic microbial buddies
12:51 PM on 06/14/2011
Nice! Orders of magnitude between shallow and deep and nothing deeper than a puddle. Pretty good assessment.