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Richard Feldman

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Gun Laws/Concealed Carry -- Where Do Obama and Romney Stand?

Posted: 09/30/2012 2:51 pm

Every state recognizes the absolute right of its citizens to use deadly force when confronted with an immediate threat to their lives or those of their loved ones. Most states, starting with Florida twenty-five years ago, re-visited their concealed carry statutes giving practicality to this agreed upon right. After all, what value is there in having a right (self-defense) in theory if the state effectively denies you the very means to enforce that right?

The approaching firearm debate faced by the next Congress and president (elected or re-elected), is legislation authorizing a person to carry a concealed handgun in any state in accordance with the restrictions of that state if they could possess or receive a firearm under federal law and they have a valid license or permit to carry from any state. The National Reciprocity act, (H.R. 822) overwhelmingly passed the current House of Representatives by 272 to 154 with forty-three Democrats joining 229 Republicans last November. It has majority support in the Senate, but not quite enough for a cloture vote and has been held up till after this election.

The opponents of National Concealed Carry have pointed out a number of problems with the current bills which need to be addressed so Americans can travel across their own country with the means to defend themselves in a rational, legitimate, safe and justifiable manner. States laws on concealed carry run the gamut from Vermont (Montana, Alaska, Arizona), where any adult may lawfully carry a concealed handgun without a state-issued carry license (so long as their possession and intent is legal), to Illinois where no civilian can obtain a license because the law simply doesn't provide the lawful means to enforce one's inalienable right to life and liberty at the hands of violent predatory pond scum.

As currently written, neither H.R. 822 nor its Senate companion bill, S.2213, passes the probative and workable test for interstate carry, legal administrative oversight and application. Now that I've managed to tick off both sides of this debate, let me explain the problems and propose some (hopefully) useful solutions.

We at the Independent Firearm Owners Association believe that all adult citizens who are neither violent criminals nor mentally deranged psychopaths should be able to obtain a license to carry which would be generally valid from sea to shining sea.

This license would in effect become an enhanced federal carry permit. It can and should be issued by state authorities once the applicant meets a recognized standard currently in force in several "shall issue" states such as Texas and Virginia. The applicant should be competent in of how to operate a handgun, familiar with the basic rules of gun safety and hold a fundamental understanding of the laws of "deadly force" as well as how they may differ from state to state.

The NRA offers an excellent course entitled "Basics of Personal Protection Outside The Home." They describe it as "... a nine-hour course and offers the essential knowledge and skills that must be mastered in order to carry, store, and use a firearm safely and effectively for personal protection outside the home." This course or its equivalent provides a sound basis for interstate concealed carry. In truth, most people who legally carry personal protection firearms now have far more training than the basics I've outlined and if they don't -- they should but that's a state issue better decided locally!

Another concern of the legislation is that law enforcement would have no way of knowing that an out-of-stater has a valid permit. Thankfully the Internet provides an easy solution. Any person who obtains their Federal Enhancement to their state license will have their name, license and expiration date entered by the CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) or designee of the state of issuance into the database. Nothing in this proposal would change the current reciprocity agreements between states, it would only add to, not detract from the ability of a citizen to carry lawfully in states (or jurisdictions) that don't currently trust their own citizens "may issue" (i.e., NYC, D.C., Maryland, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and California).

An additional issue better addressed in separate legislation arises from the legalistic distinctions between "felonies" and "misdemeanors" which vary considerably from state to state. A felony conviction generally prohibits your lifetime possession of firearms, but multiple convictions of serious violent misdemeanors do not.

Why should a person convicted of a non-violent felony, say tax evasion, lose their Second Amendment rights for life, but a violent offender arrested for dozens of serious felonies who manages to plea-bargain them down to misdemeanors does not? We are a pretty bright people; we can devise better formulae for restricting and regaining essential liberties such as firearm ownership than arbitrary and often meaningless definitional code words. This just isn't rocket science and we can apply it across the board prospectively for firearm ownership depriving the opponents of national concealed carry of a problem which we gun owners can intelligently resolve.

Perhaps the final criticism to this concept is that law enforcement groups (mostly big city chiefs) don't like it. Our response is simple, our laws should be written to protect the rights of the citizens -- not make the job of policing easier, (if indeed it would and no evidence exists to make that claim).

If Jim Lehrer does ask the two candidates a question on the gun control/gun rights issue this Wednesday, it ought to be forward-looking and not related to oft debated stale topics of gun registration, semi-automatic assault weapons (sic), Saturday Night Specials that aren't going anywhere. This question sets out new ground with an issue they will have to deal with; "Do you support or oppose National Concealed Carry legislation which would allow citizens to carry a handgun for protection with a state issued permit with federal mandated training standards? Why or why not, and what changes to the current legislation would you require to garner your support?" Over a hundred million gun owners deserve to know what next occupant of the oval office thinks about their self-defense rights before they vote.

What do you think?

Quick Poll

Do you support or oppose your fellow citizens the ability to carry a concealed firearm in interstate travel?

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Every state recognizes the absolute right of its citizens to use deadly force when confronted with an immediate threat to their lives or those of their loved ones. Most states, starting with Florida t...
Every state recognizes the absolute right of its citizens to use deadly force when confronted with an immediate threat to their lives or those of their loved ones. Most states, starting with Florida t...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
hagagaga
You can't take the sky from me.
10:34 AM on 10/05/2012
Both candidates are terrible on the issue.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Right Whale
12:15 AM on 10/05/2012
Barack Obama has been hiding his aggressive anti gun agenda. Liberals point out how Obama has "expanded gun rights' Obama signed pro gun legislarion that Congress attached to other bills he wanted badly. AND Obama knows the fervent opposition to gun control and his lack of action has een pure self preservation, Whene he was in the Illinois state house he supported and intrdoduced the strictest gun laws in the country. That was only 6 or 7 years ago? If Obama wins reelection he will nominate two more anti gun SC Justices. Remember how Sotomayor lied to Congress about supporting the 2A and voted against it the first chance she got? If Obama wins, gun owners lose, it all.
11:53 AM on 10/04/2012
I really don't like the idea of adding more federal regulations to the books on something that has primarily been a state issue. At most, make it just that all licenses that meet certain requirements are reciprocal nationwide, and then leave it to states to meet that bar.

Of course, I'd prefer May Issue laws just get struck down under equal protection or intermediate scrutiny, like they should, but that's a very long game.
07:11 PM on 10/01/2012
If you had bothered to read Heller, the US Supreme Court decision establishing an individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment, you would know that the scope of that right is very narrow, that is, it is a right to bear arms for self-defense of one's home, nothing more. Under Heller, there is no constitutional right to carry arms, either concealed or in the open.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
08:29 PM on 10/01/2012
Heller did not establish an individual right to arms. Heller affirmed that the Second Amendment protects a pre-existing individual right to arms. Heller could only specifically address arms in the home as that was the only question before it, but the decision stated more broadly that the right is that of keeping and bearing arms for lawful purposes and used home defense as an example of such a lawful purpose.
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08:33 PM on 10/01/2012
While I will agree that the court did not specificlly rule on carry outside the home, that was due to the court only answering the question at hand. However the court did say this,

"The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28. "

Militias are not an indoor sport.

"(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.

(d) The Second Amendment ’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32."

Both these sections discuss BEARING arms, as such I think that if the question is raised then the SCOTUS would rule that States would have to allow some form of carry outstide the home.
I say that because of this part of the ruling.

"Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster"

See defense of self is not a at home only thing. People don't loose their 2nd Amendment rights at the door step.
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06:41 PM on 10/03/2012
AMEN!!!!
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
06:24 PM on 10/01/2012
I don't see why anyone would oppose state licensed concealed carry. Unlicensed (constitutional carry) is a little more controversial with some people.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Dimensio
I just don't know what went wrong!
07:40 PM on 10/01/2012
I don't see why anyone would oppose state licensed concealed carry.
 Many individuals are irrational.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
montestruc
War is the health of the state--Randolph Bourne
01:08 PM on 10/02/2012
Irrational people obey laws?

If rational law abiding people are armed they can serve as a counterweight to the irrational and criminal individuals who do not obey laws and try to commit violent crimes.

FYI that does work rather well, FBI statistics backs this up.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
OCerInTN
Hoplophobics worst nightmare.
11:18 PM on 10/02/2012
Licenses to carry firearms are no different than poll taxes.
09:40 PM on 10/01/2012
Save for maybe the Brady Bunch.
11:55 AM on 10/04/2012
They're afraid of everything, though.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
daplumber
05:55 PM on 10/01/2012
Our Governor Quinn should have to answer these question's too, as well as the Speaker of the House Michael Madigan. Madigan is currently sitting on the Illinois Conceal Carry Bill HB148 and Governor Quinn wants to Veto it unless it gets a super majority vote! Only Illinois does not have CCW, because Mayor Rahm Emanuel of the City of Chicago, can not control it's Resident's!
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07:19 PM on 10/01/2012
Actually Illinois is the only State that has NO form of legal carry. Open or Concealed.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
daplumber
07:01 AM on 10/02/2012
Yes, I would LOVE Open Carry in Illinois, but the Liberal's would wet themselves!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
hagagaga
You can't take the sky from me.
11:32 PM on 10/04/2012
Actually, it needs a supermajority to pass and Quinn has promised to veto it if it ends up on his desk. It has a majority, it just doesn't have the Chicago area.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
daplumber
04:52 PM on 10/01/2012
Great Article about our 2A Right's!
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05:04 PM on 10/01/2012
I think you mean 2nd Amendment vs Article II since Article II is about creating an Executive branch with a POTUS and VPOTUS.....
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
07:50 PM on 10/01/2012
You are both incorrect. Article II of the BoR reads, "No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened." It is the 27th Amendment, but the second Article of the Bill of Rights.

He was thinking of the Second Amendment (fourth Article) of the BoR.

You were thinking of Article II of the Constitution itself.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
daplumber
07:28 AM on 10/02/2012
DON"T GO ON THIS LINK>>> MY COMPUTER HAS WORKED FUNNY SINCE GOING ON THIS LINK!
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01:36 PM on 10/01/2012
Since the standards for issuance of a Concealed Carry Permit vary so widely, "States Rights" advocates should oppose any state from being required to accept a CC permit issued by another state.

However, gun ownership is a Federal, Constitutional right. Therefore, I think the Federal Government should set a group of standard requirements to which all states must adhere. Then, all states should accept permits issued by any other state.
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03:42 PM on 10/01/2012
The Federal Government could just make it legal to open carry in all states (no permit required) and allow States to issue Concealed Carry permits or not. That might be the best all around since the government would be in compliance with the 2nd Amendment and the States would also have a limited say so on a different mode of carry which would require a permit.
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Brian Bender
Moderate Independent
10:58 AM on 10/01/2012
This will set excellent precedent for National Voting Licensing, National Abortion Licensing, National Speaking Against the Government Licensing, National Practicing Atheist Licensing, ect. Let’s license and tax those, um, inalienable rights!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Molon Labe762
Sic Semper Tyrannis
01:34 PM on 10/01/2012
exactly, i support each state recognizing each others CCW licenses, but i refuse to have a national standard on this as its just backdoor national registration.. no go
02:01 PM on 10/01/2012
Sir, they let you drive a car in other states, not because they're nice people, but because you have a permit issued by a governing body at least as high up the political food chain as theirs. Your city license to sell tacos from a food cart might not be good in another state, but your drivers license works. Why not your state issued weapons permit? But this is all moot. New York and California will never give up that kind of control.
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Brian Bender
Moderate Independent
02:53 PM on 10/01/2012
Well, driving is not a right it's a priveledge. So you know, I'm for some form of "constittional carry". Also, the stage has been set to force NY and CA to uphold the Constitution and the Second Amendment. The Supreme Court will likely hear and rule on a carry case by Summer 2014.
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04:05 PM on 10/01/2012
The thing that is really crazy is that if you have a New York STATE handgun permit (cost $10) it is not valid in New York CITY which cost $340 + $91.50 finger printing charge.

I think the gun owners in NYC call the permit scheme; The NYPD Retirement Fund. LOL
08:07 PM on 09/30/2012
You say "The applicant should be competent in of how to operate a handgun, familiar with the basic rules of gun safety and hold a fundamental understanding of the laws of "deadly force" as well as how they may differ from state to state", which is fine, but you also said like Virginia, but in Virginia you don't need to know how to use a handgun safely, you don't need to understand any laws of Virginia let alone any other state's laws. You only need to know how to answer a few really easy questions on a computer - how does that prove anything, when you don't even know who is tapping the keys? Texas sets a reasonable standard for applicants, so reasonable that Texans are now getting Virginia permits because they are cheaper and easier - does that make us all safer?
05:49 AM on 10/01/2012
Texas has asinine fees, which is why people op for Virginia permits, I live in PA and my fees are almost as low as Virginia's, but you mentionsed safety, so what if its easier to get, has that shown that the people who get the cheaper license are any more dangerous than the once who jump through stupid hoops and spend more than $100 or is it just your opinion with nothing to back it up?
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
rikilii
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
01:55 PM on 10/01/2012
PA has NO requirements regarding training or knowledge, yet I have never seen any evidence that the lack of such a requirement is a problem.
11:56 AM on 10/04/2012
Yeah I live in Oklahoma, but I'm from Texas. I compared the license requirements and was pretty surprised at how much more expensive Texas is.
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08:06 PM on 09/30/2012
No one should have to pay for the right to exercise a constutionally protected right. I am in favor of constitutional carry, which is that if you are not a convicted felon or have been found mentally incompetent by a court of law, then you can carry a firearm concealed or openly.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
rikilii
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
02:01 PM on 10/01/2012
Agreed.  Criminals and people who are on their way to shooting up movie theaters obviously won't care if it's legal to carry, and people who are legally allowed to carry almost never accidentally kill others.  Overall, licensing is a waste of time and resources that could be better spent on vigorously prosecuting violent criminals instead of letting them plea bargain away felonies.

I do agree with the author, however, that we'd be better off with a more rational set of restrictions based on past convictions.  IMHO, a consistent history of violence (including repeated misdemeanor level stuff) or reckless behavior (including repeat DUI offenses) should disqualify people from gun ownership, at least until a substantial amount of time with no further offenses passes.
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03:00 PM on 10/01/2012
On the Rational set of restrictions thing, the devil is in the details. 
 
Example: DUI without any victims or property damage has the potential of both. Public intoxication is illegal as well as drunk and disorderly, again both have a potential for mayham. However the drinking of alcohol is legal. Then to complicate things there is the issues with drug intoxication with both Rx and illegal drugs which breathilizers won't catch.
 
Then there is the issue of nonviolent felonies. White collar crimes.
 
Like I said, the devil is in the details.   
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Pongo Pygmaeus
Freedom is Politically Incorrect
11:49 PM on 10/01/2012
Not if the big ole' government can make some money off of it. Coming soon to a neighborhood near you: Federal self defence training tax.
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05:49 AM on 10/02/2012
Well Uncle Sam already paid for my training,
but I know what ya mean.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
realitytrumpsbull
Two 'alves of coconut!
03:53 PM on 09/30/2012
Criminals don't follow laws. Presumably, some criminals carry guns, enabling them to use force on the public if need be in the course of committing various criminal acts in their chosen line of work. How can the public defend itself, if barred from firearms ownership? We haven't yet built our massive, nation-spanning airbonre police state, capable of swooping down into each citizen's life upon receiving the bat-signal from your smartphone. They kind of have that, it's 911, but until they figure out how to really build those Iron Man suit-things, and have 100 officers standing by at the police station, just waiting to hit the LAUNCH button, for practical purposes there still needs to be some way for private citizens to protect themselves from the advancing hordes of shadowy, violent, murderous, omnipresent criminality run rampant in our fair society. One such method of defense, is a loaded firearm, with which you can accidentally shoot yourself, a family member, perfect stranger, or that neighbor's pet that's a constant nuisance. All too easy. Another method of crime prevention is being well-informed, watching the news, knowing your neighbors, yet another is good personal practices, locking doors, not leaving valuables laying around, so forth, and so on. Yet another is to police yourSELF, and what you do in this life, which might help to prevent you from coming into contact with so many criminals in the first place. Know thyself, and choose your friends wisely.
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Gestas
Mountain Man
03:53 PM on 09/30/2012
People that carry guns, need to carry them out where we can see them..make them wear a badge..
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
04:18 PM on 09/30/2012
Defeats the prupose of concealed carry.
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05:03 PM on 09/30/2012
I have absolutely no problem carrying my pistol where it can be seen, as for a badge that's for people who protect others. My concern is with protecting myself, not protecting others who won't protect themselves.
03:34 PM on 09/30/2012
Where did the phrase ". . . with federal mandated training standards" come from? There are NO training standards in any of the reciprocity bills and to add these then changes the way these laws are written and also open the door for the addition of other Federal requirements. I strongly oppose any federal requirments being added in any of these bills.
12:08 AM on 10/02/2012
It could work the same way LEOSA does now - a federal law that allows retired and active duty cops to carry concealed almost anywhere in the country.

If you meet the requirements, you can concealed carry, and the state has no control over it. It doesn't affect state reciprocity, or licensing standards, etc. It just means you have two ways to carry in a state - the state way, and/or the federal way.

With federal right to carry, it could be done rather similarly. If you have a permit from state X, as well as meeting certain requirements, you can carry in state Y. States X and Y could still have reciprocity agreements, issue CCWs (or not) to whomever they want, just like it is now.

It would not be unreasonable to have the federal method have requirements - LEOSA, for example, requires a yearly qualification.
10:28 AM on 10/04/2012
LEOSA is a very strongly implemented law that basically says anyone who qualifies can essentially ignore any non-federal gun laws in any US jurisdiction.
11:44 PM on 10/04/2012
Respectfully, The Constitution and the Secons Amendment is all the government regulation I need.

"...shall not be infringed." and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments pretty well tell say that the Government has NOT been empowered to restrict my right to arms.
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Toogee
2G or not 2G?
03:10 PM on 09/30/2012
Open question to those that pray to the NRA and the second amendment:

Often you folks argue that we as a society would safer and better off if MORE people were in possession of a firearm in everyday situations. Would you also advocate for someone with a CCP to legally carry their weapons on ANY form of public transportation and government buildings?
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
03:58 PM on 09/30/2012
Since no one prays to the NRA or the Second Amendment, you will probably not receive an answer.
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Toogee
2G or not 2G?
04:20 PM on 09/30/2012
I disagree! There are many of the NRA faithful who's devotion to guns boarders on a religious extremism.
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sogden
47% UNITED
11:00 PM on 09/30/2012
oh please many Americans worship guns
08:07 PM on 09/30/2012
I'll take the bait. I do not pray to the NRA, but I do help distribute their literature. For the most part I would say yes. With few exceptions. (White house etc, where there is no shortage of armed law enforcement at the ready)

If a person has a permit, then they have taken the time to register with the police, were probably finger printed and had an extensive background checks.

While no system is absolutely 100% perfect, the OVERWHELMING majority of permit holders I will trust with my life.