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Robert J. Spitzer

Robert J. Spitzer

Posted: April 1, 2010 09:15 AM

Upset About a Census of People? How About a Census of Guns?

What's Your Reaction:

You've heard the census naysayers, the Michelle Bachmanns, the Glenn Becks, the Tea Party movement activists who are calling for a "partial boycott" that urges people to only report the number of persons in their households. Some are calling for an outright boycott. The commonly cited reasons coalesce around charges that the modern federal count is an unnecessary, unwarranted, and dangerous invasion of privacy that strays from our nation's founding practices. Libertarian Party Chairman William Redpath, for example, charges that the census is an attempt by the government to exercise "control over the lives and money of the American people."

But these anti-government types who wax nostalgic for America as it existed in its early decades can't even get their history right. After all, the nation's first census in 1790 asked ten questions, like this year's census, and the list of general census questions grew throughout the 19th century. By 1930, the census canvas asked more than thirty questions, and this was two years before the country elected that closet-socialist Franklin Roosevelt.

Imagine the outcry if the government did today what it did early in the country's history: conduct a census of arms among the general population. In the days when national defense needs rested heavily with citizen militias, it was important for the government to know who owned how many guns, and in what condition. While procedures varied around the country, the counting generally occurred by militia officers or constables going door-to-door in their local districts, inquiring not only about the number of firearms, but their conditions (firearms were mostly made of iron at the time, so they often broke down or rusted, rendering them inoperable; generally, even broken weapons were counted in the totals).

The nation's first Secretary of War, Henry Knox, ordered several nationwide counts of guns during George Washington's presidency. During Thomas Jefferson's administration, a more ambitious and careful national count was launched by War Secretary Henry Dearborn in 1803, covering arms held both publicly and privately. The result showed that about 45 percent of militia-eligible men (roughly between the ages of 18-45) had arms, or about 24 percent of adult white males. President James Madison's Secretary of War, William Eustis, reported similar numbers in 1810. Censuses of firearms continued to be conducted sporadically up until the Civil War.

It's no small irony that a government census of population now arouses such ire, when counting not only people but guns was entirely unexceptional early in our nation's history, and that the only militias that make news today are the government-hating pseudo private "militias," some of whom were arrested last week by the FBI for plotting to kill police and instigate rebellion against the government.

Spitzer's recent books include The Politics of Gun Control (4th ed. 2008), Saving the Constitution from Lawyers (2008), and Gun Control: A Documentary and Reference Guide (2009)

 
 
 
 
 
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08:37 PM on 04/05/2010
Robert J. Spitzer wrote: "The nation's first Secretary of War, Henry Knox, ordered several nationwide counts of guns during George Washington's presidency. During Thomas Jefferson's administration, a more ambitious and careful national count was launched by War Secretary Henry Dearborn in 1803, covering arms held both publicly and privately. The result showed that about 45 percent of militia-eligible men (roughly between the ages of 18-45) had arms, or about 24 percent of adult white males. President James Madison's Secretary of War, William Eustis, reported similar numbers in 1810. Censuses of firearms continued to be conducted sporadically up until the Civil War."

I wish you people would stop relying upon Michael Bellesiles. Your statement is totally misleading. What you are referring to is what was termed a "'Return of the Militia" which attempted to count firearms employed in the militia, both owned by the government and by militiamen. The count itself was rather incomplete, as it asked the state governors to report on 'the military strength of each State, the actual situation of the arms, accoutrements, and ammunition of the several corps". Some governors did not respond, and others gave only partial returns. It was generally accomplished by counting the number of muskets these militia men brought with them on official days of muster. It did not attempt to go door to door and ask every american how many guns they had, what type of guns they had or anything like that..
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10:19 PM on 04/05/2010
To emphasize this point. There was no attempt to do a census of all privately owned firearms in the USA at any time. The effort was limited to counting the arms which the militia men used in connection with there militia duties.

It would be comparable to counting the number of privately owned firearms used by police officers while on duty as a police officer.... Then trying to claim that this is a complete survey of all firearms owned by everyone in the USA.

It was not, and it was never intended as such.
06:06 PM on 04/05/2010
It's not really surprising or ironic to those who study history.

It is exactly those types of lists of firearms that were used for the banning of (defacto or dejure) of firearms in numerous states and locals (including Chicago and DC) as well as confiscations in CA.

Gun control groups as well as cabinet members are advocating using 'lists' to eliminate Due Process.
01:50 PM on 04/04/2010
Yes sir, 'revisionist' history at its best ... there were only six questions on the 1790 form and they ALL had to do with "numbers" (enumeration):
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Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
11:41 PM on 04/03/2010
I have more than I need and less than I want. (Guns, that is.)
10:42 AM on 04/02/2010
Times change Robert, and so do the laws. You know full well that the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act explicitly prohibits the establishment of a Federal Gun registry, so what you are advocating would be a violation of federal law.

Sorry to spoil your propaganda fest, but there are some of us out there who do know the facts on this issue.
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emh
12:26 AM on 04/04/2010
what "propaganda fest?" you clearly didn't even bother to read the article, so why are you commenting about it? it was a history lesson - for those who don't know the facts. i'd say that contrary to your claim, you fall squarely into that category.
12:59 PM on 04/04/2010
I'm not the one who brought up the notion of a gun registry without mentioning it would be illegal under current federal law.

Even if this was just ment to be a "history lesson", he still should have pointed out that such a registry would not be legal today.
12:24 AM on 04/06/2010
It is comical to see people claiming to "know the facts" when they don't even understand the article that is right in front of them. Try reading more of the article than just the title. The author is not calling for a gun registry. He is merely stating that something like census of guns was done over 200 years ago and he is asking people to think what would happen if the government tried something today like they did then. YOU are the one who is bringing up the gun registry.
02:51 PM on 04/08/2010
Whether or not he advocates a gun registry, he still should not bring up the notion of one today without at least pointing out that it would be illegal under current federal law.

Thus outrage over a gun registry would be justfied, as it would require the government to violate a law that has been in place for nearly a quarter of a century
05:25 PM on 04/01/2010
Here's my answer:
White male. Drinks too much. Fell off medication. Owns a gun. Has ammo socked away.

What's your answer?
01:56 PM on 04/04/2010
Nah, white male, doesn't drink, owns several guns, makes and loads his own (better accuracy that way), and can hit a diamond on a suit of spades at 1,800 meters without breathing too hard ... can you say 7.62?
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Aaror
02:40 PM on 04/05/2010
White male, stopped taking depression meds, knows how to make chemical weapons, explosives, and thermite-who needs guns?
Thermite, for those who do not know, is very simple to make. Simply grind aluminum (pop cans) and rust (any rusted iron will work), and mix together, perfectly safe until you put some ignited magnesium into it, then it burns so hot that a thimble of the stuff placed on top of an M1Abrams will melt through the entire tank and blister the ground beneath it...
Remember that advice not to mix bleach and ammonia? That is cause you don't want to create an oderless, colourless poison gas...
Anyone who thinks they need guns to defend themselves doesn't understand chemistry or research...
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dfranz
With Liberty and Justice for all
04:09 PM on 04/01/2010
Given the paranoia on the right today I can't think of anything that would make them go even crazier than a Census on guns.

I pity the poor census taker who has to knock on doors for that one.
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ctman47
Micro Me
12:38 PM on 04/04/2010
Is it going to be any better for this one?
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Rudderman
GOP: All fringe, no carpet.
03:24 PM on 04/01/2010
Link below is a survey of guns per 100 people in 27 countries. This is not a survey about the actual number of people who own guns, but it’s still interesting especially concerning countries you might expect to have higher rates. Guess who's in first by a wide margin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership
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gypsysailor
Things that might have been never were.
04:09 PM on 04/01/2010
Without looking and taking a guess I would think Switzerland would be first and Isreal second.
07:36 PM on 04/05/2010
Nope. Israel didn't even make the list.
11:41 PM on 04/01/2010
We're Number One! We're Number One! We're Number One!
03:06 PM on 04/01/2010
I have no problem letting the gov't know I have a rifle suitable for use in a militia.

After all the SC said in 1939 (Miller) that the "militia comprises all able bodied men" and that "when called to service" we are "expected to appear bearing arms of the kind in common use at the time" (ie a rifle similer to what is being carried by regular soldiers at the time).

I actually can't quite meet my obligations though as I am prohibited from obtaining a full-auto M16 (techinically I can but since the law has prevented new FA weapons from being sold to private citizens since 1986 the price of the "grandfathered" full-auto weapons is now beyond the reach of the average citizen, plus there is the $200 ATF fee, fingerprints, local police approval etc necessary to own a full-auto weapon since the 1934 National Firearms Act).

So, my semi-automatic copy of a military rifle is all that I can report with.

If the gov't wants to give me back my Second Amendment rights I'll be happy to report to them every year if necessary that I still own the M16 they want me to have so that I can participate in the militia.

As to telling them what other guns I may own.

Forget it. Ain't gonna happen.
03:28 PM on 04/01/2010
Be a patriot, scot.

When you're drafted, show up with a .32 cal flint-fired squirrel piece. The gov't will gladly replace it with a full-auto AR style rifle. That should make you happy, eh?
03:53 PM on 04/01/2010
Tunafud--thanks for admitting that you are a hoplophobic gun banner
03:54 PM on 04/01/2010
There is no draft, the armed forces are all volunteer.

But yes, in early militia laws, the people were REQUIRED to own a suitable firearm, and if he could not afford it the law stipulated that the gov't would provide him with one.

Since I am by law (look it up) a part of the militia (the National Guard is the "organized" militia") I think it is only right that I be provided with the means to fullfill my service.
03:58 PM on 04/01/2010
The brittish repelled aergentina in the falklands using a Semi Automatic rifle. Gun control is hitting where you aim on the target. The idea that weapons are only militarily effective in full auto mode is uneducated. Generally wasteful of ammunition particularly in citizen soldier untrained hands would be more accurate.

The argentinean troops had the automatic version of the same rifle design (FN-FAL) although the brittish manufactured their version of the same design. Things you learn watching the military channel.
02:50 PM on 04/01/2010
"Government is the problem"--Ronnie's four little words. Who knew the damage he would do. Republicans, since then, have been repeating that mantra--of couse only when they are out of power.
04:14 PM on 04/01/2010
But those words are still true regardless of who is in power. Unfortunately, when you let government get so powerful -- yes you will like it when they use the power for good, but new people are going in and out of government all the time. Once you give government that power -- they won't give it back -- they get used to it -- they like doing things and not having to held accountable for it -- they like the secrecy and then tyranny ensues. We were stupid to allow the 4th amendment to be gutted by the patriot act.
05:00 PM on 04/01/2010
Government is the problem unless of course you financed your home with a FHA/HUD loan, went to school on the GI bill, had a public sector job, or got your job from government funded research, need your SS, or Medicare, sent you kids to the library.

The elelction on 2000 sealed the patriot act, but a lot of people knew the wars were wrong and so was that act. That is why we have electons--but to say that government is the problem and mean all government is just ridiculis.
05:02 PM on 04/01/2010
ridiculous--fast fingers
11:45 PM on 04/01/2010
And before him, Thoreau. Smart men who were right.
considerthis
I try my best
02:46 PM on 04/01/2010
I'd like to laugh but I have to cry -- so many people actually think guns are going to be counted or even confiscated by President Obama.

FOLKS -- IT'S NOT A CURRENT PRACTICE --IT'S NOT HAPPENING -- THE ARTICLE IS ABOUT THE 1800
03:07 PM on 05/09/2010
and what is keeping it from happening is that the Democratic leadership know it is political suicide
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HANNIBAL1066
I've written on the Tea Party movement at politica
02:16 PM on 04/01/2010
Sometime in the 1970s or 1980s I took an American history class and read an article that in old Wild West Dodge City there was perhaps one murder in twenty years. The reason was that every cowpoke and desperado that came into town surrendered their weapons to the sheriff. As they were leaving town, they retrieved their weapons.

Obviously, norms change. But it is interesting that even in the Wild West no one was a Second Amendment absolutist on gun control.

I was just wondering if you recall that.
03:08 PM on 04/01/2010
They may have made the cow-punchers leave their guns at the city gate but the rest of the townspeople were armed.

See also the North Deerfield raid whereing the townspeople shot up a gang attempting to rob the bank.

The myth that the wild west restricted gun ownership is a MYTH.
11:46 PM on 04/01/2010
Who was there to ensure that people's constitutional rights were not violated? No one.
12:53 PM on 04/01/2010
These days, sadly, something like this would be used in the future for confiscation. Look at what happened in NYC--gun registration first, with the promise that it would never be used for confiscation, followed by confiscation. Never believe an anti-gun zealot when he says he doesn't want to take your guns.
01:54 PM on 04/01/2010
"Never believe an anti-gun zealot when he says he doesn't want to take your guns."

The same logic applied by thinking Americans when GW Bush pushed for privatizing Social Security.
02:03 PM on 04/01/2010
So you agree that people like Richard Daley and Paul Helmke want to take away legally owned firearms?
02:22 PM on 04/01/2010
which has nothing whatsoever to do with anything anyone is talking about.
01:59 PM on 04/01/2010
Agreed--although here in California, a rabid gun banning politician named Jack Scott helped get laws passed to prevent LEAs from confiscating firearms after Katrina type disasters by being caught on video loudly proclaiming on the state senate floor that he WANTED firearms confiscated during emergencies. Very few politicians voted against that bill (because proRKBA groups made it well known that clip of Scott would be used against politicians who voted to allow confiscations)
02:21 PM on 04/01/2010
I used to live in LA County. I well remember the gun-grabbers out there. It's very gratifying to hear stories like this, because I sure didn't in the 3 years I lived out there.
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12:36 PM on 04/01/2010
Back then, it made sense. Many earlier applications of citizen's arms to fortify the militia had to specify certain things to make sure that everybody had serviceable arms and good equipment and stores.
The way things are now, there'd be no such need, and far too much potential for violation of the 2A.

If we outlawed opportunistic wars and disbanded the large-scale force projection militaries that do not serve the needs of narrowly-defined defense of the nation then maybe such a thing would serve everyone's best interests (as opposed to a uniformed mercenary force supporting the corporate interests that keep the capitalist oligarchy in power -Search for the writings of General Smedley Butler)
If "militias" were formed in place of uniformed government troops (police, Spec-Ops police squads, other violations of Posse Comitatus, etc), then armed militias and equipment census would be OK.
Today, with the political winds varying and some seated government officials who'd be all too ready to launch confiscation efforts, it obviously shouldn't happen.
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11:53 AM on 04/01/2010
What if people decided it was nobody's damned business how many guns they owned, and did not report them to the Census Bureau?

Do you think criminals are going to comply?

This is another nonsensical 'feel good' idea that will acomplish absolutely nothing.
Grunty1
Micro-bio this
12:24 PM on 04/01/2010
Actually, his point is that right-wing opposition isn't grounded in facts or history, but is merely a "feel good" idea that will accomplish nothing :-)
considerthis
I try my best
12:35 PM on 04/01/2010
too late - the lead story tonite will be "Obama using the census to take away our guns"
11:49 PM on 04/01/2010
Of course, he's wrongl. The Left legislates feeling. The right to "feel safe." The right not to be offended. I've had an arguably intelligent liberal actually say to me "Your right to own a gun doesn't trump my right to feel safe." Sorry pussycat, it does.