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Ryan J. Davis

Ryan J. Davis

Posted: November 12, 2008 04:56 PM

Protest at Mormon Temple Not Best Messaging Method


I'm a little scared of the anti-Mormon fervor that I'm seeing in the gay community. All over Facebook today the statues look like we're planning a Night of the Long Knives at the Mormon Temple in NYC at 6:30. Seriously guys, cut it out. I know you're angry. I know you need some way to express that anger, but the Mormon Temple in NYC makes no more sense than your grandparents' retirement community in Sacramento or The Apollo Theater in Harlem. Can't we be better than this?

While thousands and thousands of protesters gather outside the Mormon Temple, invoking scenes of Fred Phelps, we'll still be left with a simple fact: We were out-organized and out-fundraised in California. That's why we lost. It's great to see all these voices speaking out about Prop. 8 now that it's too late to do anything about it. Where were these people weeks ago when the Equality Groups were on their knees begging for money? We knew we were being out-fundraised for weeks and I rarely got a message about it. I've been contacted about 30 times regarding this single protest.

This protest will just confirm the Mormons' fears about us and will certainly be portrayed negatively in the media. It's old, divisive politics. Politics I'd like to put behind us and had hoped we could after Obama's historic victory.

Now, I'm not defending the Mormons. I've been speaking out against them since before it became trendy and there are ways we can express our anger without another Kristallnacht. You can avoid staying at the Marriott and make jokes about polygamy.

But in the end, it wasn't the Mormons that passed Prop. 8 in California, so your nights spent suffering at Holiday Inns will be in vain. It was the people of California who voted to put bigotry on their law books and it's shameful. So let's educate them. Outreach, not Anger. We have to actually spend time on this; we can't solve it screaming for two hours at people walking into a church.

I'm ready for the fight, as long as I don't have to become a crazy fundamentalist monster to be part of it.


Originally Posted on The Hill's Pundit Blog


Follow Ryan J. Davis on Twitter: www.twitter.com/ryannewyork

 
 
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03:50 AM on 12/05/2008
The Anti-prop-8 protests since the election have been far more effective at moving California public opinion than efforts made pre-election. Granted, conservative pastors have stopped railing against Prop 8 now that they have won. But a reported 8% of pro-8 voters regretting their vote is not just a rebound.
Perhaps this effect would have been smaller pre-election. There might have been negative impacts outside California in other states if such protests had started earlier, as there were in 2000.
But having watched the local (LA) news coverage of the protests, I have to say I was not at all surprised by the results of the above-mentioned poll. Seeing gays protesting the loss of their civil rights had a profound effect on an important subset of the community, discrediting those who trivialize the gay commitment to and victimization by the issue. This effective mass (and free-publicity) tactic should be utilized in advance of future elections on similar issues.
That said, one of the next steps needs to happen in Congress. Marriage is an important symbol, but a Federal guarantee is needed. A Marriage Freedom Act must repeal the Defense of Marriage Act, affirm the protection of all marriages under the full faith and credit clause of the U.S. Constitution, and extend to civil unions all of the legal and financial privileges and immunities conferred upon married citizens and residents by the Federal government or any state.
05:40 PM on 11/27/2008
protesting the church may not overturn prop 8 overnight, but it's hella annoying to them and i love that. you're getting bombarded with texts and info now, because people are fighting back. yes, we may be too little too late for the prop 8 battle, but the war is far from over and i would like to reach it fighting.
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JohnBisceglia
01:59 PM on 11/18/2008
STONEWALL 7.0 - Perhaps a group of wealthy Drag Queens and Drag Kings will withhold millions and millions of tax dollars from the IRS until their hatin' sisters and brothers finally show some respect in U.S. Civil Law.

America needs to make a decision SOON - either INCLUDE us, or we will remove ourselves from your tax base.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
JohnBisceglia
09:40 PM on 11/17/2008
As Americans can't we agree that there are MANY other important issues to address (like the Economy, Education, Health Care, Poverty & Homelessness, Iraq/Afghanistan...all of these are related), and solving THOSE problems is more urgent than having "Equality Issues" TIE UP THE
COURTS for another 30+ years? We will NOT go away.

You keep procreating; we keep popping out. Sorry.

Our representatives have spent years inventing 4-letter words (DOMA, DADT) to restrict us, deny us, demoralize us, and harm our beloved families and children.

The National Equality Tax Protest - Wednesday, April 15th, 2009.

Enough is enough.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
JohnBisceglia
07:02 PM on 11/16/2008
REALITY CHECK - If YOU come into my home and threaten my FAMILY, YOU will have to suffer the consequences.

How else can you characterize what the Mormons and "Christians" have done with PROP 8?

There is PLENTY of tragic examples about the suffering caused by Marriage Inequality, suffering endured by mothers, fathers, children.....you know, FAMILIES.

So they need to be honest with themselves - THEY brought all of this on. My husband Bob and I were just sitting at home bothering NO ONE, and THEY created, bought, and sold PROPOSITION 8 to the people of Califonia.

Criminal!
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SLCPunk
Nobody cuts and runs on Sheriff J. W. Peppah!
07:01 PM on 11/13/2008
We fought the good fight today, people.

The moes overreached and now there's going to be a big, fat microscope trained on them and their practices. For once, people outside of Utah will know. I invite you all to come to Utah, take in the skiing and the beautiful scenery...and make sure you engage in plenty of PDA to REALLY get under their skin. The worm is turning. Soon we'll all be free.

LOVE.

IT.

No Theocracy in America!
04:00 PM on 11/13/2008
Davis may be right that gays in California failed in organizing and fundraising—but he misses the larger point. If it were only this fact, then why are gays around the entire country outraged? I couldn’t marry before prop 8 and I still can’t marry. Bigotry is already written into my state’s constitution!

And here’s what Davis and so many others do not recognize. No matter how much education and outreach we undertake, some people will still HATE gays! Wake up, people! Some of these conservatives and religious people don’t care about us. No matter how many levelheaded, rational arguments we use, it will not work on everyone. If we wait until every bigot in America is converted, gay rights will never progress. The reality is that most Californians who voted were stupid and/or clueless enough to buy into the lies that Prop 8 proponents were selling. Gays are more visible than ever in everyday life, and we STILL lost. What that says to me is that prejudice against us in serious, and that all the organizing and education we’ve been doing over the last decade or so is limited in what it can accomplish.

Tactics need to change, and our leadership needs to change. These protests springing up around the country aren’t the work of GLAAD or HRC, as good as those orgs might be. It was average queers, saying “enough is enough!”
02:14 PM on 11/13/2008
Jeeze, we fought a Civil War and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans to free the Slaves. Civil Rights have NEVER been given to polite people. Why do people keep blaming themselves when vicious bigots plot against them? The courts will strike this unconstitutional proposition down, have a little faith in America.
02:39 PM on 11/13/2008
I hope you are right Tesla, about the courts striking this down. If not now, then when Obama appoints some hopefully more liberal judges to the Supreme court.
04:17 PM on 11/13/2008
I once attended a conference where Justice Stephen Breyer was speaking. An audience member asked him whether he thought the US Supreme Court would declare it unconstitutional to deny gays the right to marry. He responded that proponents of gay marriage must go to work. He told the person not to wait for the courts to do the heavy lifting. His point was that we live in a republican democracy, where power resides in the people, not in the courts. If you want to see change, effectuate it yourself. Waiting for the courts to strike things down is a cop-out.

Also, it is unclear to me how an amendment to the constitution can be unconstitutional. By definition, the amendment must be constitutional. You may disagree with it, but CA citizens have the power to change it through another ballot initiative.
05:10 PM on 11/13/2008
First, CASC has ALREADY ruled that marriage is a right for ALL Californians.

So . . . think it through.

Say we passed an initiative that said all Mormons must leave the state. There are SO many other rights that this would violate it would have to be struck down.

In this case the ENTIRE constitution would have to be re-written AND it could not violate the US Constitution (federal law trumps state law).

Unfortunately there are those pesky first and fourteenth amendments, especially the Equal Protection Clause, that this Amendment CLEARLY violates.

Your kind will lose this one, and the fact that your kind even TRIED to strip other Americans of their rights shows how little respect your kind has for the Constitution and the basic Freedoms that America is founded on.
05:11 PM on 11/13/2008
One of the arguments against the implementation of Prop 8 is a constitutional principle called "harmonization." The idea is that there shouldn't be anything that makes a Constitution conflict with itself.

When statutes conflict with the Constitution, it's an easy answer: the statutes are invalid.

Clearly it's a tougher question when the struggle is in the Constitution itself. Further, California law specifies two, poorly defined, types of changes to the Constitution, amendments and revisions. I'm not going to pretend to know the difference, although revisions are supposed to be major changes. It may be that the implications of Prop 8 are far-ranging enough to be declared a revision. I don't know.
01:33 PM on 11/13/2008
Was it wrong for the molested children of errant priests to protest at the catholic church? of course not. separate rules for gay people. treat us like second class citizens.
01:04 PM on 11/13/2008
I am LDS. I am absolutely shocked at the respone proposition 8 has received. Absolutely shocked. I do not understand why you want to CHANGE something that we believe in. We believe that being gay is WRONG. We believe that God sent all of us on this earth to learn and grow, to marry (man and woman), to raise children together, and ultimately return to Heavenly Father again someday. We believe that choosing to be gay is against God's plan.
Now hold onto your pants, because here's the part that everyone SKIPS when talking about the LDS church.
However, just because we do not agree with someone choosing to be gay, that does not mean that we feel any disrespect, hatred, anger or animostiy for that person. We just disagree with their lifestyle. And guess what, (REMEMBER HOLD ONTO YOUR PANTS), we have every RIGHT in this FREE country to feel that way. EVERY RIGHT. You are taking away my freedoms and my rights as an American citizen by trying to FORCE me to agree that your lifestyle is a good thing. I am not in any way trying to force you to change. But I have every right to disagree. Every right.

It's too bad that the ones who are calling names against us, are the real ones who fit under those catagories. It really is too bad that they are the worst hypocrites I've every seen.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
FearlessFreep
I'm actually a radical leftist
01:15 PM on 11/13/2008
Nobody's seriously asking Mormons to agree that homosexuality is good. We're just asking you to mind your own business.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Lemeritus
Been there, done that, lived to tell
02:03 PM on 11/13/2008
Bingo!
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SLCPunk
Nobody cuts and runs on Sheriff J. W. Peppah!
01:20 PM on 11/13/2008
You don't understand how this works, do you computer? YOU have a right to free speech. YOU also have the right to pay millions to have your voice heard. Your CHURCH doesn't because they don't pay taxes.

Additonally, I would like you to apply your argument to slavery. That was a tradition too. It was also the bedrock of the southern economy early in this country's history. In short, it worked. Now why on earth would anyone have wanted to do away with THAT?

You could also apply your argument to mormons. Didn't your people (who choose to be that way regardless of what you think) flee oppression? Wouldn't they have liked government protection and validation of their choices?

You BELIEVE people CHOOSE to be gay. I BELIEVE they're born that way. Conversely, you BELIEVE you were born mormon. I think you CHOOSE to be mormon (with a healthy assist to the brainwashing done by your peers. Why should your choices be protected, while others' aren't?
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SLCPunk
Nobody cuts and runs on Sheriff J. W. Peppah!
12:58 PM on 11/13/2008
SEPAR8 CHURCH & ST8!

Everyone, now that we've got the upper hand, pressure your representatives to remove tax exempt status from churches that inject themselves into politics/legislation. Freedom of Speech is only afforded to tax paying members of our democratic republic.

Do it yesterday.
03:34 PM on 11/13/2008
SLC Punk -

Your posts are pretty misguided. All citizens (and organizations) are entitled to speak freely, regardless of their tax-paying status. That's what our founding fathers fought for. If you want to only allow tax paying members of our society that right then you'd exclude most political action committees. They don't pay taxes, yet most of the political advertising over the past several years has been funded by PACs. Nor would the poorest people of our country be entitled to free speech protection. There are many citizens who don't pay any taxes because their wages are too low. Think through the ramifications of your arguments before spouting them out.

There are tons of strong arguments in favor of gay marriage. Use them. Revoking churches' tax-exempt status is not one of them.
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SLCPunk
Nobody cuts and runs on Sheriff J. W. Peppah!
04:04 PM on 11/13/2008
You're right, I misspoke (actually, I didn't think I'd have to explain my meaning and got a little lazy). Tax exemption for churches does not remove FOS, it simply states that CHURCHES/RELIGIONS cannot take an active role in promoting a specific political POV. Does that take away their right to their opinion or their right to voice it? No. It's in the First Amendment.

To wit: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The specific Code:

"Section 501(c)(3) of US Code Title 26, which governs tax-exempt organizations, reads (emphasis added):

(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

Back at ya, junior.
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SLCPunk
Nobody cuts and runs on Sheriff J. W. Peppah!
05:14 PM on 11/13/2008
I was limited by characters, so I had to break this up. Now, where were we? Oh yeah. I was explaining the code that governs a church's tax-exempt status. For your further info, PACs operate under separate guidelines. And as someone who thinks marriage is a sham, I couldn't care less if they took the right away completely.

So:

You're ignorant, but I'm misguided? That makes you a hypocrite. Especially when I've got those pesky facts.

I'd also like to know what the "ramifications" are. Is that gigantic complex of buildings downtown going to miss those millions of dollars? What the hell do churches need millions (billions in this case) of dollars for anyway? And how about all those companies the church holds shares of? It sounds like a business to me. They should be taxed like one. Then they could spew all the ignorance they wanted, just like you. And we might stand a good chance that, like other tax evaders, they'd move it offshore.
11:51 AM on 11/13/2008
Mr. Davis,

With all due respect, you posted to this blog in August 2008, calling for a protest.

"Fight To Protect NYC Nightlife!"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ryan-j-davis/fight-to-protect-nyc-nigh_b_117160.html

You were all worked up about a famous gay nightclub's liquor license being revoked by a "small group of residents."

Yet now, when gay people protest against bigotry and organized hate, you compare us to nazis.

You need to check your priorities.
11:41 AM on 11/13/2008
Mr. Davis,

You'd probably be the one writing that MLK Jr. and Cesar Chavez marching to Selma and doing hunger strikes are useless and that they don't send the best message and that Rosa Parks should've given up her seat. Pity.
11:41 AM on 11/13/2008
All the KKK needed was education and rational arguments and they would have stopped their reign of terror.
11:12 AM on 11/13/2008
I think that we need to get on topic here with our protests/rallies/sit ins. I understand why we are mad at the mormon institution but we need to start reaching out in order to expand our support base not retract it.

Here is an idea: have a peaceful, quite sit in at locations that give out marriage licenses. No yelling, no screaming, just holding signs that are on topic and relative to our cause. I didn't actually come up with the idea, but I think it is great and I am trying to spread the word about it.

I am arranging one for the week after this in LA.
01:26 PM on 11/13/2008
That would be a great idea if the state of California were opposed to same-sex marriage.

Were it not for Prop 8, county clerks would be issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

The Governor agrees with us.

The Legislature agrees with us.

The Courts agree with us.

We don't have a complaint about the government of California.

I think your idea is perfect in states where the government has claimed it is just for them to refuse marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

No, we have to protest the people who really brought us Prop 8.