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Sanjay Sanghoee

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Friendly Fire: What NYC Shooting tells us about Cops, Guns, and Armed Citizens

Posted: 08/25/2012 9:24 pm

In my blog Are Guns Killing our Freedom instead of Defending It? I pointed out how the love and glamorization of guns in our culture, and particularly the dangerous linking of guns to freedom, contributes significantly to gun violence in the United States. This weekend, after the NYPD announced that all nine of the bystanders injured in the shooting near the Empire State Building were shot by cops responding to the gunman, the predictable response from many readers was that since it was the cops' fault, guns were not the problem.

Aside from the screwy logic in that, the fact is that the NYPD's frank admission makes the case for gun control even stronger. What happened in New York City is an example of the mayhem that ensues when guns are used in any situation.

The police officers who responded to the Empire State Building shooting were trained to aim accurately, yet in the chaos and uncertainty of the precise moment when they confronted the gunman, their training and instincts took a back seat to simple human error. Unlike a shooting range, which is a controlled environment, the real world is literally a flesh-and-blood "moving target" and the likelihood of the wrong people being hit is much higher.

Now consider what would have happened in that situation if all New Yorkers were armed. With more guns in the mix and more citizens deciding to take matters into their own hands, many more shots would have been fired, and if the professionals themselves could miss their target and shoot innocent bystanders instead, you can imagine how ordinary citizens, most of them with only amateur shooting experience, would have done a hell of a lot more damage. In the madness that would have erupted, a simple take-down of a suspect by police would have turned into a modern day shootout at the OK Corral. Anyone who believes that a scenario like that would have resulted in fewer casualties is patently insane.

The other important thing to recognize is why our police need to carry guns in the first place. It is because we have a proliferation of guns in America in private hands. As I have said earlier, the cowboy culture and the spread of heavy duty weapons like the AR-15 semi-automatic rifles make our society a dangerous place, which then necessitates a strong armed response by law enforcement.

Compare this to the United Kingdom, where guns are strictly controlled, where most cops do not carry firearms, where incidences of gun violence are rare, and rampage killings like the insanity in Colorado even rarer. While it is difficult to prove whether gun crime across the pond is lower because of gun control or other factors, one thing is for sure - there are fewer guns in circulation in English society and that reduces the need for the police to be perpetually armed. My point is that the only surefire way to avoid "friendly fire" is to obviate the need for guns all around - something that cannot happen as long as civilians want to be armed. Contrary to popular Constitutional lore and manipulative NRA rhetoric, an armed citizenry does not make us safer but destroys our safety completely.

The Empire State Building incident may have had a lower body-count than the shootings in Colorado and Wisconsin, but given how it played out, it should be a cautionary tale of what can happen when guns are used at all, and should be utilized to ramp up the pressure against gun violence, the gun culture, and the twisted arguments of the gun lobby.

Mayor Bloomberg, can you hear me?

Tweet this blog out with the hashtag #stopgunviolence.

 
 
 

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05:53 PM on 09/10/2012
Mr constitutional lore, the inanity of yur argument betrays you as a helpless unarmed brittish sprig
05:48 PM on 09/10/2012
Thats right. The cops should have let him run around ny stabbing people...0r maybe they should have restrained him wit a knife huh?
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Molon Labe762
Sic Semper Tyrannis
05:19 PM on 09/04/2012
im sure he'd appreciate the 2a if he had spent a little time in a gulag
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Radioburning
05:10 PM on 08/30/2012
"Compare this to the United Kingdom, where guns are strictly controlled, where most cops do not carry firearms, where incidences of gun violence are rare,"

Ummm, the police in the U.K. carry MORE guns now than they did before banning firearms. Last year a shooter in the U.K. killed 11 people in a mass shooting. You are more likely to get stabbed to death in England, than get shot in the U.S. Even though the U.K. had a low rate of gun homicides BEFORE banning guns, and guns have been banned there for 12 years now, there is still gun violence. So, if it was me, I'd stop pointing to the U.K. as the shining example of "what could be".

P.S. U.S. police only have to qualify with their firearms twice a year, shooting at stationary targets at 25 yards. The average gun enthusiast has more "training" than the average cop. I could post links to many news reports of ordinary citizens stopping criminals trying to murder people in public, where no other citizens were accidentally shot, but I'd be wasting my time. Your utopian uncompromisingly anti-gun stance is well noted.
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Molon Labe762
Sic Semper Tyrannis
11:04 AM on 09/12/2012
fanned!
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Jerry Bourbon
12:40 PM on 08/30/2012
Sanjay, what is your opinion on this:

http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Armed-bystander-stops-stabbing-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx

Note, please, that this obviously "untrained" civilian managed to do what he did WITHOUT shooting nine, or any, innocent bystanders.

I anxiously await your response...
12:08 PM on 08/30/2012
Mr. Sanghoee writes of "the dangerous linking of guns to freedom"?!?!

Perhaps Mr. Sanghoee is unaware that in 1915 the Turkish Government passed a law requiring all Armenians living in Turkey to turn in their firearms - and then proceeded to slaughter more than 90% of the Armenian population - more than one and a half million people, dead and gone.

Perhaps Mr. Sanghoee is unaware that in 1917 when the Communists took over the Ukraine, they immediately passed laws making it illegal for non-Party citizens to own firearms - then in 1929 Stalin declared that all farmland now belonged to the State and to terrorize the farmers into submission, proceeded to send several million of the most prosperous framers to forced labor camps or kill them outright.

Perhaps Mr. Sanghoee is unaware that in 1936, Adolf Hitler's Nazi party enacted a gun control law that mainly removed the rights of Jewish citizens to possess firearms. Then he tried to slaughter them all and nearly succeeded.

Perhaps Mr. Sanghoee is unaware that in Cambodia, Somalia, and many other places similar events have happened - all preceded by the citizens being deprived their right of self defense via modern firearms.

Perhaps Mr. Sanghoee is unaware that during the 20th Century, 170 Million innocent people were killed by their own governments - all after having their firearms taken away from them.

Perhaps Mr. Sanghoee is just unaware.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
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Jerry Bourbon
12:41 PM on 08/30/2012
Actually, I wonder if Mr. Sanjay is not a clever NRA plant, embedded in the hoplophobic crowd to write this drivel and discredit them...
09:26 AM on 08/30/2012
This article is interesting and yet off the mark. In a free society taking the means for self defense from the people is a disturbing thought. A man killed those people, his method was a gun, so the logic is ban the gun? What if he used a knife? Would the answer be ban knives? The police injured all of the bystanders in the conflict so the real question is why are they such bad shots at close range? If they panic under pressure maybe they are in the wrong occupation. A disturbing mindset that has gripped the U.S. military and police seem to be that the killing of innocent people to bring criminals to justice is acceptable. What happened to all of the tasers and other toys they have? I saw the video and the bystanders got out of the way when they saw an altercation brewing yet 9 innocent people were injured. The gunman shot people he worked with then walked away, when the police caught up with him down the street he never fired a shot at them but the two officers shot 16 times at close range hitting him 10 times Who was concerned about hitting innocent bystanders?
What this man did was wrong but to blame guns is wrong as well. It's like blaming the Memorial Day holiday weekend for the approximately 500 people who die on the road that weekend heading out on vacation.
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wolflover3825
Hungry Like the Wolf.
09:05 AM on 08/30/2012
"Compare this to the United Kingdom, where guns are strictly controlled, where most cops do not carry firearms, where incidences of gun violence are rare,"

Let's continue that comparison, shall we Sanjay.

Compared to the UK, the US violent crime rates have decreased in the last 15 years. Where as the violent crime rates in the UK have INCREASED by 300% in the same time, since the gun bans. The gun violence rates in the US has decreased in the last 15 years, while the gun violence rates have INCREASED by almost 2X in the same amount of time, since the gun bans.

Also, you seen to keep forgetting to mention, the UK gun violence rates wwre well lower than the US rates BEFORE the UK gun bans 15 years ago. And one more thing that you keep failing to mention about the UK. Their knife violence has grown out of control since the gun bans as well. So much so that they are trying to ban knives also.

If you afre going to compare the US to the UK, then compare more than just what helps your agenda, compare those things that really show the real numbers, not just the ones that you want to look at.
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Pete Gerasia
If you can't think logically, don't talk to me.
01:51 PM on 08/30/2012
Wish I could fan you again.
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wolflover3825
Hungry Like the Wolf.
08:13 AM on 08/31/2012
Thank you for the thought.
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Molon Labe762
Sic Semper Tyrannis
05:26 PM on 09/04/2012
also lets not forget that some UK cops now carry mp5's, which we cant even get in america legally without ATF hassle
09:39 PM on 08/29/2012
Did you read the article on HP about the grandfather that killed an armed robber? Seems the black guys walked into a dollar store to rob it. They were stopped by someone with a concealed gun. Maybe the problem isn't the guns but the criminals. If criminals had a 50/50 chance of getting money or getting killed, maybe there would be less crime.
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Jerry Bourbon
08:58 PM on 08/30/2012
Outstanding. I see why HP didn't have this one.
08:42 PM on 08/29/2012
That's a crock of "you know what", Police rarelly if ever train with their guns other than to qualify, "because they have to", most make it through their entire carrer without ever drawing their weapon from their holster.
Sportsmen who take this hobbt seriouslly, practice at least once a week, some more some less. But much more than 99.9% of cops. I can shoot rings around any police officer in any competition, which translates into the real word. It's practice like anything else, Shooting is a perishable skill, if you don't practice constantlly you will forget everything in a matter of months.Saying Police are trained marksmen is like saying the ice cream man, is better at eating ice cream.
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Molon Labe762
Sic Semper Tyrannis
05:27 PM on 09/04/2012
the training most of us civi's put ourselves through makes cops look like sycophants at best
02:00 PM on 08/29/2012
But wait, there's more:
Institute a 'Stop and Frisk' program that allows NYPD to randomly stop persons and search them for weapons. A clear violation of civil rights. CHECK.
Install thousands of monitoring cameras to spy on everybody that dares to step out in public. CHECK

So, please. Mr. Sanghoee if you hate guns and gun owners that much, by all means, give the go ahead and encourage an elected official(that has no trouble violating his oath of office-or the Constituiton) and hitch your wagon to his agenda.
01:47 PM on 08/29/2012
The author implores Micahel Bloomberg to do something?
Like create a sham organization with polls(by a discredited 'wordsmith') that indicate gun owners support gun control. CHECK
Violate Federal Firearms Law by operating a straw puchase sting outside state jurisdiction and then using TAXPAYER money to strong arm legimate businesses in Virginia into 'Concessions' only becasue they could not afford to fight him in civil court. CHECK
Bankroll MAIG and their 600 mayors. Some 3 dozen of which are felons, under indictment, or forced to resign for criminal behavior. CHECK
Oversee a firearms 'Permitting' system that rewards the wealthy, the connected and the ruling elite with CCW permits. CHECK
Have himself and family members granted full time NYPD security details to protect them from criminals. CHECK.
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Dimensio
I just don't know what went wrong!
01:44 PM on 08/29/2012
I have located a police officer's informal testimony regarding the "training" and qualification requirements for police officers in the city of New York.  Unfortunately, Mr. Sanghoee has already demonstrated himself to be ignorant of firearms-related subjects and thus he may be unable to understand from that testimony why New York police officers, as a group, cannot reasonably be considered to be "trained" regarding firearm usage.
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wolflover3825
Hungry Like the Wolf.
09:15 AM on 08/30/2012
The intructor I had for a concealed carry course I took gave an example of the marksmanship of an officer.

The rules stated that in the yearly pistol qualifications the officer had to hit the target [@ 25 feet] 6 times out of 10. The officer hit only 3 times. The chief wanted more training for the officer from the instructor. After a month of training and practice, the officer only hit 4 times, still failed. The chief came back the next day with a new set of rules stating that the officer need only get 4 times out 10 to pass.
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Pete Geller
I came, I saw, I wtf?
01:21 PM on 08/29/2012
Sanjay obviously you didn't watch the video of this event. After being warned that the suspect had just shot someone these officers approached the suspect without having their firearms ready and no concern about innocents being in the line of fire. When the suspect turned with his firearm at the ready they panicked. This speaks volumes about their lack of training yet you can't bring yourself to admit that fact. Then you fantasize about what would happen if citizens in the area had been armed although no cases of citizens having a shootout as you claim has ever existed. Save yourself a little time with your next expose and just inform us that you personally don't like firearms and don't like them being in the hands of responsible citizens and leave it at that. Everything else you write is just unsupported supposition that wastes your time and ours.
12:24 PM on 08/29/2012
Yeah, les gun crimes in England, but you are 2x as likely to be stabbed to death in England than you are to be shot by someone with a gun in the US. I'll stick to the guns