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Scott Atran

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The Tea Party's Sacred Cows and the Privilege of Absurdity

Posted: 07/31/11 11:45 AM ET

The irrationality of Sacred Cows, for better or worse, changes history's direction and the configuration of human destiny.

The Tea Party believes religiously in one thing: American prosperity and power depends on fiscal (rather than social) health. In this worldview, going into default and being forced into austerity measures can actually strengthen the balance sheet, as in Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings, which is considered by the group more important for the long-term health of the country than short-term problems faced in the debt debate. No bull.

Recent research into seemingly intractable conflicts indicates that, for better or worse, radical movements that have attempted revolutionary changes in society do truly act on what they believe to be their sacred values -- core moral principles that resist and often clash with rational calculations. Once locked into sacred values there is a denial of the validity of opposing positions no matter how logically or empirically well-founded. Market fundamentalism -- irrational belief in the rational wisdom of the market -- is one case that Nobel laureate Danny Kahneman and financial analyst Nassim Taleb have debunked.

Congressional Tea Party holdouts against raising America's deficit ceiling behave as if any compromise on the issue would violate a sacred commitment to honor the Founding Fathers' wishes that government be as disentangled from people's personal lives (and from foreign adventures) as much as the defense of their physical safety allows. This "existential" commitment is a rebellion against "the tyranny of government," symbolized by increasing taxation. They believe their way will buck the republic's historical trend over the last 235 years toward larger government, and ultimately produce a leaner, downscaled federal authority despite almost certain immediate damage to America's economy and power.

The Tea Party's mantra of fiscal austerity, underscored by populist rejection of "scientific pinheads" (typified by the "hoax" of global climate warming), also willfully ignores a century of economic data worldwide that shows that belt-tightening in a time of high unemployment and anemic growth generally leads to higher unemployment and less growth that can readily tip into recession, and even risk depression. That, in turn, can require even greater deficit spending to prevent economic meltdown and the social and political chaos that goes with it. True, Chapter 11 proceedings can sometimes work to rehabilitate personal or company finances to economic health, as it did with General Motors because of assistance from the federal government that the Tea Party opposed. But default and downgrade is extremely unlikely to do the same for the world's largest economy or global markets unless, as with European Union assistance to Greece, China and the world's other large economies unite to bail out America -- a remote prospect.

Models of rational behavior predict many of society's patterns, such as favored strategies for maximizing profit or likelihood for criminal behavior in terms of "opportunity costs." But seemingly irrational behaviors like intractable ideological conflicts, wars and revolutions -- in which the measurable risks and costs often far outweigh immediate or likely benefits -- appear to defy such prediction. For example, historical sleuthing by sociologist Rodney Stark suggests that early Christianity spread to become the majority religion in the Roman Empire through "irrational" costly displays such as martyrdom and charity -- including risking death by caring for sick non-Christians during epidemics. Early Christians were willing to sacrifice their lives for faith in a doubtful future that their sacrifice eventually secured against all odds.

Unlike other creatures, humans form the groups to which they belong in abstract terms. Often they make their greatest exertions and sacrifices not in order to preserve their own lives or their family, but for the sake of an idea -- the conception they have formed of themselves, of "who we are." This is the "the privilege of absurdity to which no living creature is subject, but man only'" of which Thomas Hobbes wrote in Leviathan. In The Descent of Man, Charles Darwin deemed it "moral virtue," with which winning tribes are better endowed in history's spiraling competition for survival and dominance.

My research with colleagues, supported by the National Science Foundation and Department of Defense, indicates that the prospect of crippling economic burdens or huge numbers of deaths doesn't necessarily sway people from their positions on the moral virtue of going to war, or opting for revolution or resistance. In seemingly intractable situations of intergroup conflict, "sacred values" appear to operate as moral imperatives that defy the cost-benefit logic of realpolitik or the marketplace, and generate actions all out of proportion to their probable results, "because it is the right thing to do, whatever the consequences."

For example, regardless of the utilitarian calculations of terror-sponsoring organizations, our research indicates that al-Qaeda-inspired suicide terrorists appear to act as "devoted actors," who are willing to make extreme sacrifices that use a "logic of appropriateness," as terrorism analyst Bruce Hoffman puts it, rather than a calculus of probable costs and benefits. We also have suggestive evidence from neuroimaging studies designed by Gregory Berns' team at Emory University, that people tend to process sacred values in parts of the brain that are devoted to rule-bound behavior rather than utilitarian calculation of costs and benefits.

Commitment, or lack of commitment, to sacred values can be key to the success or failure of insurgent or revolutionary movements with far fewer material means than the armies or police arrayed against them (which tend to operate more on the basis of typical "rational" reward structures, such as calculated prospects of increased pay or promotion). Consider the American revolutionaries who, defying the greatest empire of the age, pledged "our lives, our fortunes, our sacred honor" in the cause of "Liberty or Death," where the desired outcome was highly doubtful.

No reasonable study of human history up to the time of the American Revolution would have supported the outlandish Declaration of Independence that "we are endowed by our Creator" with "inalienable rights" including "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Slavery, cannibalism, infanticide, racism and the subordination of women are vastly more prevalent across cultures and over the course of history. It wasn't inevitable or even reasonable that conceptions of freedom and equality should emerge, much less prevail among genetic strangers. These, when combined with faith and imagination, were originally legitimized by their transcendent "sacredness."

The decision of the American colonies to unite in a Declaration of Independence from Great Britain was never a slam dunk. As late as May 1776, notes historian William Hogeland, support for separation was still largely restricted to "Boston extremists," egged on by the likes of Samuel and John Adams in popular and raucous town meetings, and backed by a few well-heeled Virginians, like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. Only when Pennsylvania's property-less artisans and laborers were convinced that by siding with the "extremists" they could obtain political rights and position did the populous mid-Atlantic colonies follow and move for independence.

In 1776, Americans had the highest material standard of living in the world but resented control by a distant power that many felt did not fairly represent them. Britain sent the largest naval armada of the 18th century (30,000 men) against New York (20,000 inhabitants), and initially bloodied Washington's army to a pulp. At the end of the year, revolutionary forces were starving, and the remnants were beginning to return to their homes. Eye-witness reports of the day indicate that Washington saved the fledgling republic with an evidently sincere appeal to a higher moral calling: "You will render that service to the cause of liberty which you can probably never do under any other circumstances."

As Osama Hamdan, the ranking Hamas politburo member for external affairs, put it to me in Damascus: "George Washington was fighting the strongest military in the world, beyond all reason. That's what we're doing. Exactly." And our research indicates that Hamas supporters and Israeli settlers alike do truly believe that they will win provided they do not surrender, or even negotiate, sacred principles like the right of return of their people to their ancestral homes and land or having Jerusalem as their national capital.

Yet, risking one's life in commitment to a different set of sacred, transcendental principles is also a sentiment of many young Muslims in Tunisia, Egypt and across the Arab world. In self-conscious alignment with Martin Luther King and his followers, they preach non-violence as a sacred principle of the "Arab Spring" to achieve ends of the sort epitomized in America's Declaration of Independence and Yemen's Youth Revolutionary Council call for: "basic human rights, equality, justice, freedom of speech, freedom of demonstration, and freedom of dreams!" The outcome of their struggle is far from certain, however, in part because others oppose them who are strongly committed to theocracy and the sacred value of religious law.

Because people hold sacred values to be absolute and inviolable, any symbolic "concession" must not appear to violate or weaken one's own sacred values. Doing so would likely be seen as forsaking core personal and social identity. How then to "negotiate" an end to conflict where sacred values clash?

My research with psychologists Jeremy Ginges, Douglas Medin and colleagues on the Israel-Palestine conflict and the nuclear standoff with Iran indicates that offers of material incentives or disincentives ("carrots or sticks") often backfire, as does name-calling. Fortunately, other research with political scientist Robert Axelrod also hints at a more optimistic course through "reframing." For example, Jerusalem may be religiously considered to be less a place than a portal to heaven, so that open access to the portal rather than strict territorial control is sufficient here on earth.

The opportunities for reframing issues that involve sacred values arise from the fact that their core content is often open-textured, especially if they involve religious values, which survive in time and spread in space because they are readily reinterpretable in ways that are sensitive to changing contexts. What often makes values incompatible is the way they are applied to the here and now. While values can be held firmly, their application depends a good deal on how they are understood, and what they are taken to imply, and the interpretations and applications of sacred values are not always fixed and inflexible

Take the biblical commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Many U.S. conservatives believe it warrants both an antiabortion agenda and capital punishment, whereas many U.S. liberals consider this commandment to warrant abolition of capital punishment and a pro-choice agenda. American leaders who seek election or to govern from the center must learn to finesse seemingly contrary interpretations of sacred values in creative ways.

Even for Tea Party adherents the bottom-line principle of "cut and cap," which explicitly precludes any tax increase, could be reframed to allow selective "tax reform" and "closing of tax loopholes" to increase tax revenue without apparent contradiction. Indeed, freshmen congressional Republicans have been holding prayer sessions to help work through the possibilities without forsaking the sacred value of fiscal responsibility for the sake of the nation's children. (So far Providence still seems to countenance "no compromise," but most allow that that they may not be privy to His final intent). In sacred conflicts, careful attention to reframing, rewording and reinterpretation can be fruitful avenues for conflict resolution. These are not just "word games" but surprisingly effective ways to end seemingly intractable conflicts.

Over the long-run, however, it is irrational commitment to improbable dreams that got us out of the caves, made civilizations possible, propelled competition and cooperation among larger and larger groups of genetic strangers, and created the concept of Rights. It's the willingness of at least some to give their full measure of devotion to the imaginary that makes the imaginary real, a waking dream -- and for others, a waking nightmare. It is humankind's sacred privilege in an otherwise uncaring universe.

Scott Atran, an anthropologist at France's National Center for Scientific Research, the University of Michigan and John Jay College, is the author of Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood and the (Un)Making of Terrorists.

 
 
 
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12:25 PM on 08/02/2011
Global warming is a religious belief and environmentalism is a religion. Religion should never be merged with government.
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cobraxus
Defend The Innocent_Protect The Weak
12:03 PM on 08/02/2011
the tea-party members chanting for default and government shutdown would have been the same ones screaming the loudest when their social security disability checks didn't show up.
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BrianPK80
Wisdom is having more questions than answers.
06:53 PM on 08/01/2011
Great article.
jimbo57
ni dieu ni maitre
06:16 PM on 08/01/2011
ONE side has clearly walked away from reason. ONE party has decided they are not in the business of finding real world solutions for real world problems. Gee, wonder who that could be? Maybe the party that expresses its disdain for what it dismisses as "the reality-based community" and only offers faith-based education, faith-based politics, and, now, faith-based economics.
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Sandgnat
Embrace the Lunacy
12:47 PM on 08/01/2011
Dude, this is the internet...attention spans wane before the 14th paragraph, a truth that is one of the biggest weaknesses of the medium. Your writing is excellent, your research is alluded to be impeccable, your acedemic assention must heve been fantastic. But the sad part is now that everybody has instant publishing ability, no one ( and least of all the radicals ) can be swayed by any other human, regardless of qualifications. You must become as brief and obsurd as a HuffPo headline, and learn to be content with ratings over substance. Such is America 2011.
wsdave
Abusive or Insulting? I won't be responding.
01:19 PM on 08/01/2011
Your writing is a model that he should emulate.
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coreten
10:10 AM on 08/01/2011
This article is making "true assertions"? Maybe, for the author. My belief is that, all this mumbo jumbo is concocted to create justifications for our individual or collective actions. The purpose is to dazzle someone with lots of words to the point where they either agree with you or fall asleep. The author is right in that, a terrorist blows himself for what he may believe without compromise. What he fails to acknowledge that, the ignorant terrorist's brain has been washed and re-configured with someone else's ideas, who did not want to martyr himself for the ideals he supposedly believe in.
It is like, "this is what I believe but I'd rather you die for it." So much for sacrificing yourself for what you believe in. The vitue lies in one's ability to weigh things logically and come to a compromise that benefits all involved.
12:13 PM on 08/01/2011
Apart from some academics, journalists, judges, humans are mo interested in persuasion and victory than truth, logic, and evidence. As far as suicide bombers are concerned - and I have interviewed those captured, would-Bes, friends and family - they rare most definitely not brainwashed. many are science educated and highly motivated
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coreten
02:38 PM on 08/01/2011
Well sir, I am going to have to disagree at least with some of your opinions. We all need some sort of justification for our actions. None of us are born already equipped with any opinion or influance in our minds, that is something we gather as time goes by. What type of ideology we get exposed to plays a great deal of role in our minds. Brain washing comes under many guises, from religion to politics to appealing to greed to everything else one can think of, depending on the person's weakest trait. As a matter of fact, those you mentioned, educated and highly motivated people are just as easy to brainwash as the uneducated ones, actually it may even be easier to do. A good example of a successful brainwash ( or re-motivation) would be the Jim Jones incident in Guyana. There was a cross section of different levels of education and social standing was involved. Even a "lone wolf" terrorist candidate is under a tremendous influence of some sort of doctrine that defies logic.

I am sorry I could not quite understand what you meant with your first sentence.
02:06 AM on 08/02/2011
"many are science educated and highly motivated"
Which still does not disprove brainwashing.
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:33 AM on 08/01/2011
The biblical commandment states "thou shall not murder." It does not say thou shall not kill.

If you don't understand the difference find a dictionary.
11:52 AM on 08/01/2011
thou shalt not kill" translation stems from the Latin Bible translation that was in use in the medieval Roman Catholic church. Indeed, the Vulgate (as that translation is designated) employs the Latin verb occidere which has the sense of "kill" rather than "murder." By demonstrating that the Vulgate itself employed the root occidere in Deuteronomy, when the Almighty himself is speaking of his own power over the lives of his creatures--in a context where it cannot conceivably be rendered as "murder." true, the Hebrew, Al Tirtsah refers to unlawful killing, but that's not what drives Americans' thinking
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
05:50 AM on 08/02/2011
Click and Clack on Cartalk have an apt but unintentional description of Americans, "unencumbered by the thought process."

American thinking is driven by lies and distrotions repeated incessantly by the media.

All critical analysis is discarded in favor of sensationalistic BS.
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RobM1981
I try to be amused
08:24 AM on 08/01/2011
I can define fiscal health. "Social Health?" That's one of those "constructs" that sounds good until you boil it down and find that it means nothing.

Economics is always the root cause. The Vikings raided because there was more wealth where they pillaged then from whence they came. So to the Vandals, Goths, Mongols, etc.

"Social Health" is a luxury, to the degree it even exists, funded by a healthy economy.

And Fiscal Health - having the public purse in balance - is a critical element of Economic Health.

We are out of money, Mr. Atran. The "Social Experiments" that your type have endorsed have been an Intergenerational Ponzi, in the most literal sense. Math is math and you can't change it. You might as well scream at the wind.

We just got our panties in a wad over a "deal" that amounts to nothing. Cut $100B while borrowing $2,500B. Yeah, that makes sense.

There is no economy bigger than this one. There is nobody else left to lend us more money, and we are fast approaching the point where the lenders are going to say "you know... I don't think so... you're too lousy a risk..."

We aren't Greece. We're much worse.

"Sacred Cows." What a childish remark. We're out of money, Sir. Grow up and accept it.
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:49 AM on 08/01/2011
The richest nation in the history of humanity is not out of money. It simply lacks the brains and will needed to exile all right wingers to any nations willing to accept them for a small fee.
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aviandonn
My micro-bio is empty
09:18 AM on 08/01/2011
I think we would be better off exiling this president. He's done enough damage. I'm done with him. He needs to announce that he will not seek reelection. The Democrats still have enough time to come up with a candidate who doesn't roll over every time the tea-partiers say 'boo'.
wsdave
Abusive or Insulting? I won't be responding.
11:06 AM on 08/01/2011
If we aren't broke, why don't we pay off our deficit, much less our debt?

Why do we have to keep selling Treasuries to pay for things?
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efmo
Oh no, my micro-bio is empty!
09:23 AM on 08/01/2011
The US is not out of money. It has more money than it knows what to do with - it's just that it is all now concentrated at the highest economic levels & they don't believe in sharing any longer with ordinary workers because they don't have to. They own government & people like you (unless you are one of them.) I never thought I would live to see a country where ordinary working class Americans were so despised & denigrated as they are today by the modern day robber barons. The only Ponzi scheme going on is the one started under Reagan & the reverse Robin Hood, milton friedman, and that is the transfer of any and all remaining wealth & public resources to the top 1% as fast as possible.
wsdave
Abusive or Insulting? I won't be responding.
11:11 AM on 08/01/2011
I read recently that if we were to take ALL of the money away from the top 2% folks, that would pay for the country for about one year. The following year we'd be $1.5 Trillion in debt again.

Sounds like we know EXACTLY what to do with the money, and it ultimately wouldn't help.
04:31 PM on 08/01/2011
This is true, and most of the Tea Partiers are NOT amongst those highest economic levels. If they were, they wouldn't care, since they would be the privileged recipients of all this. They are simply middle-class voters who see the writing on the wall for what happens when the elites suck this nation dry.
06:56 AM on 08/01/2011
"al-Qaeda-inspired suicide terrorists appear to act as "devoted actors,""

Comparing folks pushing for fiscal responsiblity with terrorists? How low can one go?
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:50 AM on 08/01/2011
They could go as low as any cellardweller would. Maybe even lower.
12:17 PM on 08/01/2011
The comparison has nothing to do with good or evil. There are good guys in history )the founding fathers) and bad guys (al qaeda). The point of the comparison was that humans, especially in those groups that drive historical change, are not driven by rational calculations of costs and benefits so much as values they hold sacred. I f you don't think al Qaeda has changed history, then pick your favorite bad guys. Hitler, for example, was deeply driven by a passionate conviction to a worldview that often made him reject the best utilitarian options. But to think I'm making a moral equivalence between Nazis and al Qaeda on the one had versus the founding fathers and and early Christians on the other is, well, just bad faith. 
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
01:26 PM on 08/01/2011
You mean the British thinking that the founding fathers were traitorous criminals might have been an error?

Al Qaeda is not evil or bad to those who agree with its intent.

You are very limited in your ability to see what goes on in this world.

Your point of view is far from the only valid one on this planet.
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Bridgette Angelos
a mom
06:50 AM on 08/01/2011
All ideology aside, they are supposed to be working for me and instead work for Norquist and I don't for one minute believe they even believe their own rhetoric because they don't live their own rhetoric. Greed, power, arrogance and the real fear of being primaried is the motivation. Why would people like sister sarah and karl rove feel a need to post over and over the threat of being primaried if these lemmings don't tow the line if the message and belief are so sacred. These people don't govern, they dictate and I wish they could have heard the fear coming out of my co-workers as this debt limit loomed. I have no problem with beliefs, they are threads that weave our humanity. We raise our chiildren and create our families with them but in the wrong hands and heads, we can destroy ourselves and others. These tea people will happily destroy us as long as they have the blessings of the few high and mighty because that is where the motivation is, not the ideology. They are human after all and just as capable of believing themselves legends in their own minds. What they don't see or believe is they are just as dispensible and just as easily fooled as the people who voted for them, remember the mantra jobs?
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:52 AM on 08/01/2011
There is an old saying: Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you have done and I will explain to you what you believe. (This saying seems to irk many people who claim to be benevolent but whose actions in no way reflect it.)
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Bridgette Angelos
a mom
09:03 AM on 08/01/2011
alumcreek, so true.
09:18 AM on 08/01/2011
You mean like the party espousing familiy values. True.
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cerebrogasm
The sleep of reason produces monsters. - Goya
06:35 AM on 08/01/2011
This article was depressing - but may be making true assertions that loyalty to "sacred cows" (even those that are obviously absurd using a simple cost / benefit equation) will often trump rationality, and will use any means necessary to uphold those cows (which are usually hollowed out icons). Irrational nationalists in early 1930's Germany, a small group of thugs, stole bits of philosophical ideology from Nietzsche, or tuned into Wagner, and went on a campaign of destroying "degenerate art" - replacing it with iconic visions of a purified Germany - a heaven on earth - if only the "pure," true-patriot, could eliminate liberalism and its cousin - intellectualism: both the province of slave race mentalities. Frenzied, irrational passion, was most honored & the thugs seeped into power - in one of the most educated countries in the world - and in less than a decade - their evolved citizens were shoveling living humans into gas chambers and ovens - by the millions, and came very close to building weapons of mass destruction. Never underestimate the uniformed, propagandized passionate partisan, the unthinking pawn of the plutocracy. Shining a light on these cockroaches may not be enough to disperse them - this current situation in America - could get ugly - fast.
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
08:54 AM on 08/01/2011
Ideology trumps reality at al times if believed on the same level as devout religious belief.

Religion denies reality 99% of the time and most adherents find no fault with it.
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cerebrogasm
The sleep of reason produces monsters. - Goya
04:28 PM on 08/01/2011
Religion (based on interacting with the supernatural) trumps reality ubiquitously, but it seems that humanity is wired to want it - which is fine with me - as long as it stays benevolent and out of politics. It's hard to face the fact that we are just "star stuff" and that our brains exhibit things called "consciousness" and "identity" - that are probably evolved illusory mechanisms that helped us survive 250,000 - 400,000 years ago, probably somewhere in Sub-Saharan Africa. It's kind of a bleak realization, unless you can use that knowledge to make the most out of the short time we are here.
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balmora
Liberals = feel good solutions that don't work
04:08 AM on 08/01/2011
I applaud one of the very best and well worded articles I've read in quite some time. Very thoughtful indeed.
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Mark MacDonald
Pass the Scotch
02:20 AM on 08/01/2011
"Over the long-run, however, it is irrational commitment to improbable dreams that got us out of the caves, made civilizations possible, propelled competition and cooperation among larger and larger groups of genetic strangers, and created the concept of Rights." Perhaps we should consider that members of the Tea Party actually do want to destroy life as we know it and send the country into economic disaster. Twenty years ago I made the decision to become a school teacher in an urban school district. I had graduated from a private university with honors and my job prospects were considerable. In the long run that decision cost me a great deal of money and at times caused me considerable stress. My father always told me that a man who works only for money works for less than nothing, he works against his more noble instincts. He was right.

For better or worse members of the Tea Party have rejected the economic promises of the statist, secular left. They may not recognize it themselves, but their irrational behavior may actually be a subconscious need for something that government cannot provide. Creation often begins with destruction. Humanity needs more than warm blankets and sufficient food stores. Finally, I would also like to suggest that the lack of passion on the Left for their own ideals seems like a malaise, a sense of confusion and loss of faith. Perhaps a guaranteed pension with free medical care is not sufficient to stir their blood.
02:43 AM on 08/01/2011
The Tea Party are piping mad...
06:57 AM on 08/01/2011
Interesting how the TPs were mocked as being irrelevant for a long while after they arrived on the scene.

Not so irrelevant now.
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Cheryl Apollo
03:58 AM on 08/02/2011
The tea party seems to believe that every thought and stand they take is absolutely right. It is a black and white world. If you don't agree with them on every issue you are socialist, not Christian, not patriotic and literally a boil on the but of society. They seem to be modern day pharisees.
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onnozol
I intend to live forever. So far, so good.
02:08 AM on 08/01/2011
The problem with this fiscal 'martyrdom' that some are displaying is the sacrifice is not one of their own. They are offering up unwilling sacrifices of the most vulnerable in our society. It is one thing to knowingly risk your own 'health' for a cause greater than yourself. It is another, if the thing you are offering up to the altar isn't you because you are too cowardly offer yourself. There is no honor in making your way on the backs of others.
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brianwjones
If ignorance is bliss, I don't want to be happy.
08:02 AM on 08/01/2011
I've always found it ironic that most of these people claim to be ardent believers in the two most influential books in history, The Bible and Atlas Shrugged, even though the two books couldn't possibly contradict each other any more than they already do.
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
09:03 AM on 08/01/2011
The ovewhelming majority of those who profess religious faith do not hold with that faith's tenets as being binding on them and restricting their basest instincts.
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thismachinekillsfascists
Exposing the GOP Lie-machine
12:50 AM on 08/01/2011
Well if it gets too bad I always take solace in the knowledge that aliens will arrive and save the day.
02:45 AM on 08/01/2011
A lot of Americans beleieve in a huge disaster they call Rapture...
wsdave
Abusive or Insulting? I won't be responding.
11:16 AM on 08/01/2011
I believe in a huge disaster I call government.
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alumcreek
sorry to see humanity repeating errors ad nauseam
09:04 AM on 08/01/2011
I used to be a legal alien and I can't even save $10 let alone a whole or part of a day.