“Better planning would've had him know that they were Commie nations with agendas not even asymptotic to ours. Getting dual citizenship with France would've been a better call, because he could then travel on that passport and France has never extradited one of their own for anything. He could've lived out his days on the Riviera with good food, good wine, and topless beaches, not in some KGB safehouse.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 11, 2014 at 10:26:12
“Jeff...seriously. You're the only one that hasn't realized this entire conversation is over. Your points are moot and mostly irrelevant..
Seriously...Commie nations....agendas...who talks like that? Besides, why does that even matter. He didn't give Russia or China any privileged information. What they know from Snowden's leaks is as much as the general public knows...probably more from their own intelligence operations.
And asymptotic doesn't mean what you think it means...even in this context.
Sure, France doesn't extradite its own citizens. But maybe Snowden conducted additional research and found out:
- he must be working legally in France for five years
- be married to or be born to a French citizen
- serve for at least five years in the French Foreign Legion
- gain a master's degree from a French university after studying in France for at least two years.
Do you have any other "bright" plans he should have followed?”
“I learned a while back that one should say what they mean and mean what they say. So when you want to explain that you were tech support, you say that you were tech support, not "I was trained as a spy." You only say "I was trained as a spy" when you want to impress people, not downplay yourself.
I understand you want to canonize and deify Eddie...but ascribing your interpretation to his words just further fails to sell us on dropping the charges.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 9, 2014 at 13:04:13
“Interesting. Maybe you can point me towards any statement I made that even remotely implies we should drop charges. He is clearly in violation of theft and the Espionage Act and he'll have to answer for those charges. The problem with youYou're seeing what you want to see. He said what he said...clearly, without interpretation. If you go by his words...which is what I've maintained all along...has standing...what you're implying those words mean to fit your narrative, quite frankly do not.
And you really have no clue as to my motivations.
Your argument doesn't make any sense. I will say this again...there are valid criticisms to make regarding what, where, and how Snowden went about doing what he did.
“Would you be willing to sign a no-rescue waiver before travelling abroad?”
Joseph Zelinski on Jun 6, 2014 at 10:32:30
“I have a few friends who made some serious mistakes and they are in jail. They are early29'2 late teens. To put in perspective I am 60. I visit them twice a week. I am required to take no-negotiation for hostages acknowledgement at the prison they are in. Sure I would sign a rescue waiver . I have never been to the Antarctic just about everywhere else I have been close to Tasmania. and north as far as Greenland, North Africa and South Africa never to the center. Europe through to Russia and have never had a problem Been to Asia as well and Middle east, Turkey Jorden Saudi Arabia. The local police handle hostages”
“Facial recog hasn't worked out well in real life. They tried it at Logan and it only had a 61% hit rate.
And they were his only options because he didn't plan ahead. And they wouldn't even consider trading him until he was no longer useful to them.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 6, 2014 at 12:40:28
“Plan ahead...it's just that simple...ehh? And 6/10 isn't bad for facial recognition back in 2003. The software and the systems have improved dramatically since then. So that's still an option Snowden wanted to avoid.
For starters...these are all the countries without extradition treaties with the United States within range of Hawaii, Russia, China, and North Korea. That's it. What prudent plan would have seen Snowden safe while he negotiated with those countries for a temporary VISA, all while he was working at the NSA? You can't tell me our government wouldn't have flagged Snowden for being granted a temporary VISA, especially employed as an NSA analyst. Then there's the matter of getting the information he wanted and fleeing the country all while being watched or at least under suspicion. Even going to Central/South America would be difficult for the same reasons as well as being in American air space.
Again...what plan would have guaranteed his safety? I submit, he ended up in the best nation possible for his own safety. Many of his preferred host nations have weak militaries, do not have nuclear weapons, and lack the influence to affect global policy. Even Cuba and Ecuador were strong armed into denying Snowden safe harbor and they don't even have extradition treaties with us.”
“You'd be surprised just how much real-world effect half a dozen words can have. The "greater context" is that he's upset that he's not getting a medal, a parade, a national holiday, and an aircraft carrier named for him over all of this.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 6, 2014 at 11:58:42
“So his whole interview now overshadows his explicit response to that specific question? The greater context of his specific response to a specific question is now invalidated because of some "greater" "truth" you want to see... Sorry, but now you are grasping at straws to support your beliefs. And yes, I know very well how half a dozen words do have a real world effect. The NRA has shown us exactly how half-truths and context free messages can affect things when they brazenly display an incomplete 2nd Amendment at its company headquarters:
".. the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
To them and their agenda, the rest of the amendment is a horrible inconvenience...one that muddles the message.
I understand you want to belabor your point that "Eddie" got all the publicity he wanted...but ascribing your interpretation to Snowden's words isn't the way to credibly go about doing so.”
“Whaddya mean "we," gop? That may be how they do things in the Confederacy due to how a rescue attempt might be viewed as a socialist handout, but here in the USA we operate under the principle of Nobody Is Expendable.”
Joseph Zelinski on Jun 5, 2014 at 19:38:03
“I like that. Saying that and really meaning that is one of the many things to our nations detriment. People are not exactly not expendable but we spend a lot more than we should as if they are not expendable. When they really are expendable and make themselves expendable. .”
“Translation: "I reflexively side with Eddie, right or wrong, smart or stupid." Working in a call center taught me how to improvise on the fly and make it sound clear, concise, and unhesitating too.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 5, 2014 at 17:07:17
“It's not a question of siding with Snowden or even agreeing/disagreeing with him. Those are his words. Whether he stepped in it...as you so eloquently put it...doesn't matter in the greater context of his response to the question. That those 6 words hold more weight to you and the general public is disingenuous at best, willful at worst.”
“It's called "go to the nonextradition country first and tell Glenn he has to come to you." And this doesn't even factor in having an additional set of clean IDs for just a contingency.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 5, 2014 at 17:53:02
“Glenn Greenwald isn't even an issue here. So what does he tell the United States government that's already on to him? Again, it took almost 30 days for Snowden to negotiate with Russia to let him stay.
Assuming he could have avoided American intelligence for a minimum of 30 days with the information in his possession or at least waited until the very last moment to steal it, Snowden would have made a wonderful bargaining chip for the host country, even one with no extradition treaty with us. Trading a known leaker for some American concessions or favors would have certainly been an option...a situation Snowden wished to avoid.
And you are still discounting one very important thing. From Hawaii, Snowden still had to travel through American airspace to get to a country with no extradition treaty at least, those on his preferred destination list in Central and South America. His only options going west were China and Russia.
Well, if we take Snowden at his word, he was a tech guy, not an operative. In his capacity as an analyst with the NSA and CIA, his clean ID's and assumed identities were created and provided for him by those agencies, so it's doubtful he has access to these tools. Not to mention, the NSA's use of facial recognition software may have rendered such an endeavor pointless.”
“And he does this all without a safe haven already in place? A certain David Bowie song continues to play in my head.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 4, 2014 at 19:58:50
“Negotiations were ongoing with Hong Kong...which fell apart on June 22, 2013 EST/June 23, 2013 Chinese Standard Time when the US revoked his passport. As you saw with his month long stay in Russia...it was impossible to secure a "safe" location using legal means within a matter of days with any country, when it took upwards to a month with Russia.”
“He offered immediate clarification because he realized he'd stepped in it with those first six words. He could've said "I was just a techie with DS&T," but that doesn't have the same amount of swerve as "spy" does. While flipping through a book on internships I thought about doing one at the CIA just so I could get That Look whenever someone says "You used to work for the CIA..." even though no intern is allowed near the Ops Directorate; I even have an actual CIA want ad cut straight from my area newspaper for spies.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 4, 2014 at 20:03:51
“I'm going with what Snowden actually said. His words are there for all to see and hear. They were delivered clearly and concisely...without the hesitation or pause I would expect from someone realizing they stepped in it. However, you are certainly free to interpret his exact words as you so desire.”
“I never knew that deciding whether or not to retrieve somebody being held captive was a political concern. Guess this explains why Dubya left those two missionaries in Abu Sayyaf's hands for the entire first year of his administration: it would've derailed other projects like Missile Defense and Tax Relief.”
Joseph Zelinski on Jun 5, 2014 at 01:53:33
“Civilians are almost never rescued. They enter with full knowledge. We are withdrawing and to leave anyone would be a nightmare politically. Don't know what Bush did or did not do. But we leave folk in foreign jails and captives. My cousin was a Viet-Nam POW one of the first three released after the war. Saw him on tv. I had a bunch of relatives who died in camps in Poland during WWII.”
“Eddie's exiled. Assange is under de facto house arrest: the microsecond he steps outside the Ecuadoran Embassy in London--which, incidentally, isn't the entire building in which it's located--he's fair game.”
spameggsausageandspam on Jun 4, 2014 at 21:15:02
“Yep. Assange is hosed. Pity.
I'm guessing he's got no more arrows to unleash. If he did, he would have already bargained for a release.”
“Because the gops are reflexively sycophantic to them and buy them expensive new toys at every turn whether they want them or not, such as that helicopter carrier that Trent Lott wanted to build in his district even though the Navy didn't ask for one.”
steveruger on Jun 4, 2014 at 00:12:35
“Buying votes with other peoples money.
But I thought only Democrats did that?”
“I'm not the one screeching about how El Presidente didn't get a pack of reactionary obstructionists' permission to rescue a guy that they now want to put on trial as a criminal.”
Joseph Zelinski on Jun 4, 2014 at 13:11:32
“The decision to court martial him or not is up to his command The decision to rescue or not is political. If he is guilty then he will receive his due. He is not due to be left behind under any circumstances. The decision not to notify Congress is a secondary issue and also needs to be addressed. Personally I believe that laws that hamper the ability of the President to conduct foreign policy during a war should be invalid. Congress can remove war powers if they no longer wish to have a war president.”
“You do know your defense is all predicated on Eddie broadcasting his intentions right out of the gate in complete violation of all that spy training he claims he got, right?”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 4, 2014 at 10:49:57
“Snowden didn't broadcast his intentions right out of the gate. He had been in Hong Kong for a number of days before Greenwald, Poitras, and McCaskill arrived to meet him. By this time, he had already leaked a couple of his documents. Also, one of Snowden's internet security device's alerted him that a NSA Human Resources person and an agency police officer had showed up at his Hawaii address searching for him.
The Guardian then released two more articles sourced from the Snowden leaks, followed immediately by the interview we've all seen where Snowden revealed himself and his intentions to the world. As I stated above, Snowden did not broadcast his intentions right out of the gate, so it's a moot point.”
DroppingKnowledge on Jun 4, 2014 at 10:11:59
“The "spy" training claim is being conflated and used to discredit him. For starters, here is what he said about his training...nuance is key:
"I was trained as a spy in sort of the traditional sense of the word, in that I lived and worked undercover overseas, pretending to work in a job that I'm not, and even being assigned a name that was not mine."
He even offers an immediate clarification of what he means later on in his interview with Brian Williams:
"But I am a technical specialist. I am a technical expert. I don't work with people. I don't recruit agents. What I do is I put systems to work for the United States. And I've done that at all levels from, from the bottom on the ground all the way to the top. Now, the government might deny these things, they might frame it in certain ways and say, "Oh well, you know, he's -- he's a low level analyst."
Jun 3, 2014 at 18:13:18
“They used the term "coming of age," such as when Robert issued that last will & testament stating that Ned was to be regent until Joffrey was old enough.”
Pat Patrix on Jun 3, 2014 at 18:53:29
“Was a specific age ever mentioned? Or is it more likely "coming of age" meant being mature enough to run a kingdom? I don't remember reading or watching a part where they specifically mention an age where men/women are considered "legal adults". Or the term "legal adults" at all.”
Jun 2, 2014 at 19:12:22
“Not quite: per the commentary portion they put at the end of the eps when they go to on-demand, Oberyn knew that the Mountain was just a pawn and wanted him to admit that Tywin gave him permission to do it in the first place.”
Jun 2, 2014 at 19:09:33
“In the books they considered 16-year-olds legal adults. Jamie and Robb, for example, are both 18 or so in the books.”
Pat Patrix on Jun 2, 2014 at 19:41:16
“In the books there was no "legal". Daenerys was supposed to be only 14 when she married Khal Drogo. Age of consent laws are a modern thing, they didn't exist in our own past histories nor did they exist in this fantasy one.”
Jun 2, 2014 at 19:08:21
“Oberyn had impulse control problems, as evidenced by his insistence on drinking booze beforehand. At least he had the foresight to dose his spearheads with a nasty poison that eventually does The Mountain in.”
Spins VMFA321 on Jun 2, 2014 at 20:55:44
“Now, that's just rude... but if you want to go there, it's possible he didn't get his revenge after all...”