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Dean Simon's Comments

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huffingtonpost entry

Can the Not Crazy Christians Please Speak Up?!

Commented Feb 23, 2012 at 11:28:39 in Politics

“I pray on a daily basis, things such as for an end to come to these dark and evil people's actions who promote the murdering of innocent children. Sucking human innocent little beautiful babies out of wombs with vacuum cleaners and jabbing scapula's into their brains. If I have any hatred it is toward the evilness of this fallen society, we are a depraved people who need to seek out the Lord and repent.”
huffingtonpost entry

Santorum's Stance on Climate Change: Not Very Christian

Commented Feb 23, 2012 at 11:12:39 in Green

“Scott,
Have you read what man's position toward earth from the Scriptures? Rick's view is not unchristian whatsoever, we are to have dominion over land and sea. We are to care for fellow man first and foremost.”

JustThisGuy on Feb 23, 2012 at 20:57:54

“So what is he doing to take care of his fellow man? Where is he feeding the hungry and taking care of the ill? Is he not his brother's keeper?”

peppery on Feb 23, 2012 at 18:56:52

“oh! and let's not forget, global warming is phooey and there's enough oil, coal, and natural gas to last forever and they'll never do harm!

...says the consultant of a coal company.”

GhostofEugeneDebs on Feb 23, 2012 at 18:53:58

“Wreck the planet = Wreck mankind. Do the math, here.”

OzzieSmerck on Feb 23, 2012 at 18:09:58

“you know who doesn't care what the scriptures say? people who aren't christians ( MOST OF THE EARTH ). i assure you, you may think you know jesus, but he has NO IDEA who you are.”

ThankDog on Feb 23, 2012 at 15:17:36

“Do.”

ThankDog on Feb 23, 2012 at 15:14:35

“How does we care for man without also caring for the planet?”

iskra on Feb 23, 2012 at 13:49:41

“Have you bothered to listen to what the Pope says about it?

He goes against what Ricky is saying. I guess Ricky is now above the Pope. 

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/18/pope-to-copenhagen-saving-environment-as-crucial-as-fighting-te/

egads1 on Feb 23, 2012 at 13:41:57

“"Dominion over land and sea" does not mean "do whatever the hell you want with it and disregard the consequences". It's this kind of backward thinking that is getting us into the environmental mess we are in now, and is most definitely un-Christian. We are to care for BOTH the earth and our fellow man equally, because they are all God's creation and thus are inextricably linked. You cannot take care of one and ignore the other.”

peppery on Feb 23, 2012 at 13:26:15

“having dominion over land and sea does not mean destroying it. sucking the earth dry = no more man or fellow man to "care for"

santorum did say one thing right - that we're to be good stewards over the earth. that's what environmental regulations are meant for.”
huffingtonpost entry

Can the Not Crazy Christians Please Speak Up?!

Commented Feb 16, 2012 at 10:19:29 in Politics

“So Luis, you haven't really read the bible then? To suggest The Christ never pointed His finger at people is laughable, who do you think coined the phrase "you brood of vipers"? or called out one of His own followers to "get behind thee Satan"?
Jesus the Christ ABHORS anyone who will not respect the lives of man. Pro-choice politicians are the epitome of evil and His judgment will come down hard on those who have the blood of the innocent on their hands, scripture is CLEAR on that, so quit speaking as though you understand Jesus when it is clear you have not opened His word to learn about Him.”

Luis Angel Rosa on Feb 22, 2012 at 19:32:00

“Jesus Christ Pointed his finger at the religiosity right that was doing wrong in God's Church.
Is that sort of what you are yourself?
When was the last time you prayed for anyone but yourself.
I see a dark hate in your heart.
A know it all way of putting others in their place,
Live your life and let people live theirs.”

miniaturehome on Feb 17, 2012 at 00:59:03

“Didn't Jesus tell us to get the stone out of our own eye before we judge someone else? Jesus didn't have a stone in his eye - he was God Incarnate, and the triune God is the only one with the right to judge. God sent his only son not to condemn the world, but to save the world. We can state our beliefs in a civil manner without forcing them on one another, and if we listen to each other, we might learn from each other.”

goatini on Feb 17, 2012 at 00:51:15

“But the lives of WOMEN, invisible and utterly disposable.

Oh, and thanks for blatantly showing how little you know about the Christ.”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 31, 2012 at 10:33:54 in Religion

“On the Ignatius point, you don't think this sounds more like a universal leader of a church???
The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to Polycarp, Bishop of the Church of the Smyrnaeans, or rather, who has, as his own bishop, God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ: [wishes] abundance of happiness.
Inasmuch as I have not been able to write to all the Churches, because I must suddenly sail from Troas to Neapolis, as the will57 [of the emperor] enjoins, [I beg that] thou, as being acquainted with the purpose58 of God, wilt write to the adjacent Churches, that they also may act in like manner, such as are able to do so sending messengers,59 and the others transmitting letters through those persons who are sent by thee, that thou60 mayest be glorified by a work61 which shall be remembered for ever, as indeed thou art worthy to be.”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 31, 2012 at 10:29:24 in Religion

“Let's look in context why Ireneaus said that folks should agree with Rome...

Irenaues
universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter AND Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority -- that is, the faithful everywhere -- inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere...

This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice Peter and Paul as Ben wrote in his article. Rome was gifted with many benefits whether in the scholarly or educational sense, this does nothing whatsoever to buttress the belief that Rome is and always has been the source of Universal authority dictated by ONE head bishop.”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 30, 2012 at 16:07:22 in Religion

“The whole tone of Clements writing shows the plurality leadership, that's why in my debate with Sam (MrPolo) I highlighted that, nothing in his writing tends to single headed leadership.

As to your Irenaeus comment, So what no one ever doubted there were bishops? if you have you read Irenaeus, honestly you know that he uses these bishopric lines throughout the book, not giving Rome any special attention over and above; Jerusalem, Alexandria or Antioch for example.
How about you do not talk about a book you have not read.
Irenaeus loves his episcopate's, that has nothing to do with Rome being the single headed leadership over the entire universal church.”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 11:25:05 in Religion

“cont...
Since this, then, is founded on the divine law, I marvel that some, with daring temerity, have chosen to write to me as if they wrote in the name of the Church; when the Church is established in the bishop and the clergy, and all who stand fast in the faith. For far be it from the mercy of God and His uncontrolled might to suffer the number of the lapsed to be called the Church; since it is written, “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” For we indeed desire that all may be made alive; and we pray that, by our supplications and groans, they may be restored to their original state. But if certain lapsed ones claim to be the Church, and if the Church be among them and in them, what is left but for us to ask of these very persons that they would deign to admit us into the Church? Therefore it behoves them to be submissive and quiet and modest, as those who ought to appease God, in remembrance of their sin, and not to write letters in the name of the Church, when they should rather be aware that they are writing to the Church.
~~~~
So when Cyprian said; for neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, which I highlighted in an earlier post, it is exactly what he meant.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 15:31:30

“St. Cyprian had a unique view of the episcopacy; one that hasn't been seen before or since as this article explains:

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num44.htm

I originally cited him to show that St. Peter was unique among the other Apostles if you will scan back to my original quote.

However, you must explain why St. Cyprian appeals to Rome himself and claims that it is the: "... the principal church...in which sacerdotal unity has its source..."

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-i

Also, I am curious as to whether or not you agree with St. Cyprian on the fact that Peter is "the rock" or other of his beliefs?”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 11:24:37 in Religion

“Let me put this Cyprian argument to rest...and show his view was exactly as I portrayed,

My (actually Cyprian's) response to your historical view of Cyprian…

In Cyprian's 26th epistle, he stakes HIS claim that as a bishop that he (Cyprian) is a successor to Peter as ALL bishops fulfill this role, with NO mention of Rome.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.iv.xxvi.html

* Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: “I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishopS and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishopS, and~~ every act of the Church~~ is controlled by these same rulerS.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 22:57:56

“St. Cyprian had a unique view of the episcopate to be sure; a view that hasn't been seen before or since as Dom Chapman has pointed out here in Phil Vaz's summary of "St. Cyprian on the Church and the Papacy" :

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num44.htm

For you or anyone who cares to read an in depth analyses of St. Cyprian on these issues I recommend this article.

I originally used St. Cyprian as evidence to show that St. Peter was unique among the Apostles. I replied to your misuse of his comment in the Seventh Council of Carthage by stating that the "us" in "neither does any of us set himself up as bishop of bishops" refers to the 87 African bishops present at the council.

You have not replied to the citation I gave like this for example:

"'With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and b.asphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source'..."

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-i

Why does he refer to the Roman Church as "the principal church...in which sacerdotal unity has its source" ?”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 11:12:27 in Religion

“Hilarious, so you use Cyprian's quotes when they are for your benefit and when not call the counsel and his view rejected.
That is quite disingenuous.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 15:22:45

“No, I replied to your misuse of Cyprian have you read it yet?”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 11:07:42 in Religion

“Incidentally Corinth may in fairness be inferred as part of the Roman patriarchette, Antioch being to far away, and Ephesus never making it to patriarchette status.
When St. Ignatius writes to the Churches in Asia as I mentioned, he writes with like or greater authority (he actually addresses bishops, whether under his jurisdiction is questionable. They didn't seem to mind).
Also, Bishop of Rome, Victor I wrote with authority as i believe you mentioned earlier to the Churches of Asia, with disastrous results.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 16:28:50

“Even if what you are proposing were true, that would not explain why African bishops appealed to Rome.

As I noted elsewhere, I disagree that he writes with like or greater authority--when does he ever claim to be speaking by the authority of God and that those who disobey would involve themselves in no small sin?

To the contrary, as he wrote to the Roman Church:

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you."

source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

Pope St. Victor is another early example of a Pope understanding his prerogative (as were Pope St. Clement and Pope St. Stephen.)”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 11:03:48 in Religion

“Appealing to Rome means nothing in regards to universal authority, it simply means the church was well respected. You are making an illogical leap.
Friend, under scrutiny it is Rome who has the problem.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 23:46:49

“I disagree. Other churches of Apostolic origin were well respected too.”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58:22 in Religion

“Part4:
Later we see Eusibius quoting Dionysis writing to Soter regarding Clements epistle.
From there I found this paragraph to be helpful in how they viewed Rome, remember Bishop Soter and Bishop Dionysis are only 70 years after Clement.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.ix.xxiii.html?highlight=we%20shall%20always%20be%20able%20to%20draw%20advice#highlight

Quote:
11. In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows:
“To-day we have passed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.”
~~~~~~
Advice NOT a command.
~~
In summary, no matter how hard you try there is absolutely no evidence of a monarchial authority, there isn't even a seed of it. Clements epistle is clear...They were a "band of brothers"

Rome did teach others no-one denies that, it is evident from how strong that area was even as Paul wrote the Epistle to them...It does not make them the universal authority.

DT,
There is no possible way you can read Clement in it's entirety and come to the conclusion he and Rome were the head of the universal church it simply is not there.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 15:53:48

“Dean Simon,

The pope and his fellow bishops still are "a band of brothers" today.

Soter & Dionysius can "draw advice" from Clement's letter 70 years later but how does this deny that the letter was authoritative?

Also, this letter was so reverenced that there was debate over whether or not it belonged in the Canon!

But you seem to be arguing semantics here and missing the forest for the trees. You seem to think Clement is giving "advice." St. Ireneaus uses the word exhort (see my link from the succession list, it's in that paragraph.) I myself never used the word "command." But this is semantics.

Dean Simon,

The pope and his fellow bishops still are "a band of brothers" today.

Soter & Dionysius can "draw advice" from Clement's letter 70 years later but how does this deny that the letter was authoritative?

Also, this letter was so reverenced that there was debate over whether or not it belonged in the Canon!

But you seem to be arguing semantics here and missing the forest for the trees. You seem to think Clement is giving "advice." St. Ireneaus uses the word exhort (see my link from the succession list, it's in that paragraph.) I myself never used the word "command."

continued...”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 10:57:48 in Religion

“----------------------------------------
Quote:1Clem 21:6
Let us fear the Lord Jesus [Christ], whose blood was given for us.
Let us reverence our rulerS; let us honor our elderS; let us instruct
our young men in the lesson of the fear of God. Let us guide our
women toward that which is good:
~~~~~~~~
elders plural
---------------------------------------
Quote:1Clem 42:2
So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both
therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.

~~~~~
No special mention of Peter
---------------------------------------
Quote:1Clem 43:1
And what marvel, if they which were entrusted in Christ with such a
work by God appointed the aforesaid personS?
~~~~~~
persons no mention of a Papacy
----------------------------------------
Quote:1Clem 44:1
And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would
be strife over the name of the bishop's office.
~~~~~~
No mention of Peter or Rome
----------------------------------------
Quote:1Clem 44:4
Blessed are those presbyters who have gone before, seeing that their
departure was fruitful and ripe: for they have no fear lest any one
should remove them from their appointed place.
1Clem 44:5
For we see that ye have displaced certain persons, though they were
living honorably, from the ministration which had been respected by
them blamelessly.
~~~~~
persons

~~~~~”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 15:43:35

“Are you denying that there was a singular bishop in Rome at that time (again another argument from silence)?

If so you are refuted by St. Ireneaus:

"3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church [in Rome], committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate... To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate."

source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Where do you see a plurality of bishops in Rome in this list?”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 15:43:23

“Are you arguing from silence then? Keep in mind he is addressing the Corinthians who have ejected their clergy. Where does mention of the papacy fit into that scheme?

Also, one should keep in mind that presbyters (elders), bishops (overseers), and deacons were fluid terms in the 1st century but they were fixed by the time we see them in the letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch and after. (You can read in my source here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/bishop-priest-and-deacon)

There are elders (presbyters) in Rome this very day just as there are and were in other churches. So what?”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 10:56:52 in Religion

“part 2:
Also as a point to what Ben wrote about how these writers did not single out Peter as head please see how Clement refers to Peter, his supposed successor and then Paul please.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
1Clem 5:4
There was Peter who by reason of unrighteous jealousy endured not one
not one but many labors, and thus having borne his testimony went to
his appointed place of glory.

1Clem 5:5
By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the
prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in
bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in
the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the
reward of his faith,
1Clem 5:6
having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached
the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony
before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the
holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.

1Clem 6:1
Unto these men of holy lives was gathered a vast multitude of the
elect, who through many indignities and tortures, being the victims
of jealousy, set a brave example among ourselves.
~~~~~~
I do not see where Clement gives Peter a prominent role over Paul
~~~~~~”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 22:43:03

“Finally, regarding St. Paul, as marco Polo pointed out to you in your debate:

"...there is no such early Church discussion of the "throne" or seat of Paul as there is with Peter, nor was the Church founded upon him, nor did he have keys, etc..."

http://www.christianforums.com/t7233352-2/
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 26, 2012 at 10:55:10 in Religion

“My point on Ignatius is that he spoke with equal "force" .

Clement doesn’t ever assert the primacy of his office. He has ample opportunity, but does not, if you suggest he does you have not read him.

I would like to make a couple simple points regarding Clement of Rome.

1.)His writings allow him ample opportunity to establish himself as head of the universal church, yet this is not something we ever see established.

And more importantly...

2.)His writings hammer home a tone that is contradictory to monarchical or single headed leadership, the PLURALITY OF LEADERSHIP is repeated over and over and over.

At the following link you can read the epistle in whole.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.vi.i.iii.html?highlight=elders#highlight

I’ve gone through to share with yourself and the readers what I mean by Clements insistence of a PLURALITY OF ELDERS

Quote:1Clem 1:3
For ye did all things without respect of persons, and ye walked after
the ordinances of God, submitting yourselves to your rulerS and
rendering to the older men among you the honor which is their due.
~~~~~
it says rulers plural,
------------------------------------”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 22:38:01

“On point 2)

I really don't understand your argument here and in your debate w/ Marco Polo.

Yes he tells the Corinthians to submit themselves to their rulers; but how does this deny a monarchical bishop let alone a papacy? Again, bishop and presbyter were used interchangeably but by the time of Ignatius they appear to be fixed (as Jimmy Akin has pointed out.) Ignatius, who upholds the monarchical bishop, tells his readers to obey the bishop and the presbyters as well, for one example, in his letter to the Smyrneans who had Polycarp as their bishop:

"Give heed to the bishop, and to the presbytery and deacons."

But again if you are going to deny that Rome had singular bishops then you would be refuted by St. Irenaeus:

"The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate...To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 26, 2012 at 22:24:05

“I disagree that Ignatius wrote w/ equal force as I stated elsewhere. Clement claims to speak as if he has God's authority behind him:

"I'f anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy'"

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-i

Ignatius does not speak like this. On the contrary he says to the Church at Rome:

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

Your saying that Clement does not assert the primacy of his office is an argument from silence; if you mean he does not state it explicitly. The authority is implicitly shown in the letter in humility, is implicit by the fact that the Corinthians appealed to Rome. There may remain the possibility also, as Marco Polo pointed out to you in your debate that:

"...Clement may not have been head bishop of Rome at the time, but rather an auxiliary bishop speaking on behalf of the head Roman Bishop..."

http://www.christianforums.com/t7233352/

I'll follow up on pt. 2 in another post...”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 25, 2012 at 10:01:47 in Religion

“DT,
Clement speaks with force, so what? There are many writers who use equal force such as the epistle if Ignatius to Polycarp and yet nobody uses that as defense of the papacy.

Also you bring up the apostle John, in doing that a faulty assertion is being made unless you can respond to each of the following proof requests.
One must prove that disputes were handled by John in other situations before you can say he should have handled this.
One must prove when the letter was written.
Not theory. PROVE
They must prove that John was not on Patmos when it was written, unless you think he was getting his mail at that time.
They must PROVE when John died.
We already know from Holy Scripture though that people wrote letters to people outside their jurisdiction.

As to your comment on Cyprian, Cyprian did believe in a primacy of Peter, but look it’s as chronological and symbolic, not jurisdictional…

At the 7th council of Carthage' Cyprian denied that there's any Pope.
For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another." – (The Seventh Council of Carthage.)”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 25, 2012 at 11:24:33

“Regarding St. Cyprian:

Why does he show elsewhere in his writings the authority of Rome:

"'"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and b.asphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source' (ibid., 59:14)."

Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-i

"'Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church' (ibid., 55[52]:8)."

(Ibid.)

you can see more quotes from St. Cyprian there.”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 25, 2012 at 11:16:25

“I bring up John because why appeal all the way to Rome when the have the authority of a living Apostle much closer?

Your assertions:
-I don't have prove John settled other disputes as it should be obvious that an Apostle has authority given to him by Christ (see Mathew 18, and John 20)

-Prove when the letter was written? You can see the scholarly consensus otherwise, I hope you are as skeptical of all other writings and apply the same standard as you are applying here?

-John on Patmos? My argument doesn't hinge on John. You must explain why the Corinthians appealed to Rome. Tradition tells us when John died, as it does when and how the other Apostles did. But like I said we can throw out the John argument if you want and you have not solved the problem.

continued...”

DtCatholicExmnr on Jan 25, 2012 at 11:10:38

“Dean Simon,

Clement's quote shows that he understood his prerogative as bishop of Rome; as did Victor, Stephen and all the Popes we have on Record from the 1st century until Benedict XVI.

Perhaps you can quote me where Ignatius uses similar wording as Clement? Also, the Corinthians had appealed to Rome and Rome responded - this is not the case with Ignatius & Polycarp as Ignatius writes exhorting churches (and Polycarp) on his way to his martyrdom. His tone is different in his 7 letters. For example, in his letter to the Romans he says:

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles; I am but a condemned man..."

source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

I also point out that he refers to the Roman Church as one which "presides" and has "taught others"

continued...”
huffingtonpost entry

The Catholic-Protestant Schism: Competing Histories

Commented Jan 24, 2012 at 16:24:46 in Religion

“Nice article, I did a formal debate on this very issue if you're interested you can find it at the christianforums > http://www.christianforums.com/t7233352/

You're right to note that the early writers often spoke of a plurality of elders, not one specific authority. You see that all over Clement's writings.
Simon”

benwstevens on Jan 24, 2012 at 21:22:24

“Thanks Dean! I'll look forward to looking over your remarks! All the very best!”