“Attendance at sports and music events is dropping due to increasing poverty, likewise further education. And yet despite the growing desperation in people's lives, church attendance (which, by and large, is free) is also falling. People are not turning to faith for answers, not here at least. They may well be in the US where religion is so manacled to right wing politics and all that 2nd Amendment bile, but not here. Oh and I've read the 'Are atheists mentally ill?' stuff and I don't subscribe to the 'higher IQ among atheists' theory. Anyway, it's not religion or faith that brings order and safety to people's lives, it's conformity… club membership, tribalism and cronyism. It's inevitable that those who go it alone spiritually and who seek out their own morality and values will take more risks. But that's what humans do and that's how they achieve and progress - by taking risks.”
Talossa on Aug 29, 2014 at 16:56:54
“> I don't subscribe to the 'higher IQ among atheists' theory
And that is simply one more example of how you pick and choose data that supports your pet opinions. That correlation is overwhelmingly documented. Atheism is a fad chiefly among the 'intelligent' (like yoga and vegetarianism).”
“This is becoming tedious… If by now you don't believe that politicians make deliberate attempts to mislead (like this one) then you probably never will. And Dilnot made no actual claim, certainly not for any personal gain - he simply pointed out the mythical nature of DC's statement.”
hibees7 on Aug 20, 2014 at 09:16:16
“Of course politicians of all colours lie through their teeth all the time. I'm just surprised that you're getting so vexed over what is really a non story Peter.”
“"Now whilst DC is clearly erroneous in claiming what he does, most people wouldn't draw a distinction between new jobs & new workers, after all they could theoretically (although I grant unlikely) match up entirely... the truth is, we'll never know for sure."
Exactly. So why does DC think he has any right to make suggestive announcements based on non-existent data? It's simple, basic unprofessionalism.
Your second point is nothing but semantics. If someone makes a statement sound like fact, based purely on unproven and contested 'evidence', then I call that notion a fabrication… a myth. You can call it whatever you like.”
hibees7 on Aug 20, 2014 at 07:52:55
“"Exactly. So why does DC think he has any right to make suggestive announcements based on non-existent data? It's simple, basic unprofessionalism"
Again you assume that this is a genuine attempt to mislead, but as I pointed out new jobs v new workers.is a very fine line that most people wouldn't draw a distinction between.
"Your second point is nothing but semantics. If someone makes a statement sound like fact, based purely on unproven and contested 'evidence', then I call that notion a fabrication… a myth. You can call it whatever you like"
So, since that unfortunately goes both ways, you admit that Dilnot's claim is itself a fabrication & therefore a myth, or does the fact that he is criticising DC bypass that charge?”
more spending, more borrowing, more debt.
penalties for businesses who fail to take on trainees.
calculatedly encouraged mass immigration
“It sure is a reliably repetitive pattern. Surely there comes a point where even committed kippers acknowledge this massive flaw at the core of the party? Or have they been secretly enjoying it all along...”
“As I already replied, that's why I said "mostly" and why I qualified my comment by pointing out that the police have a particular requirement of professionalism and impartiality if the law is to be trusted and respected. Through numerous encounters with nursing, paramedic and care staff over the years I've never observed a single important example of unprofessionalism. Whereas, though I've had minimal experience of the police, I could give dozens of examples of their significantly poor - even criminal - standards.”
“No need to tie yourself in knots over this. It's very simple… DC would have people believe that he has made a difference, by resurrecting the myth that new jobs were previously going to immigrants - an unproven and contested notion that he has no right to repeat as well as having no right to claim the credit for what is literally a non-event. A PM is expected to know better than to make inflammatory or self-congratulatory statements without being able to back them up, but he's been doing a lot of it lately. This is a very basic requirement for the job and just another example of how unskilled DC actually is.”
hibees7 on Aug 20, 2014 at 07:17:45
“No knot tying here Peter the clue is in your statement but I'll come back to that in a second.
There would appear to be 2 issues that you have & which also make the story bogus.
Firstly, DC claimed that 3/4 of new jobs went to British people, Dilnot disputed this, claiming that there were no such stats available to make that claim, however he then conceded that 3/4 of all new workers were British. Now whilst DC is clearly erroneous in claiming what he does, most people wouldn't draw a distinction between new jobs & new workers, after all they could theoretically (although I grant unlikely) match up entirely, although sadly the UK statistics office didn't see fit to gather such statistics, so the truth is, we'll never know for sure.
Secondly, You state "by resurrecting the myth that new jobs were previously going to immigrants - an unproven and contested notion"
You have proof that this is a myth? by your own admission it is unproven & contested but that surely goes both ways?
When that great champion of the working classes, Gordon Brown, of the Labour party, trumpeted" British jobs for British people" I do recall stats being bandied about claiming just that, that more new jobs went to non British people, were they all wrong?
All DC is claiming in the article are things like stopping advertising job centre jobs abroad etc, which would appear to be sensible, is he lying on that too?”
“Would you be happy if the word 'myth' were replaced with 'theory' or 'unfounded opinion'? Because then the headline would be right on the money. And are you happy that a PM chooses to make unfounded statements that he knows will fuel prejudice?”
hibees7 on Aug 19, 2014 at 10:41:42
“I'd be happier if the head of government statistics wasn't happy to admit to being a complete failure in his role, the point being that he can "rebuke" somebody for using stats that by his own admission they (the statisticians) don't have. If you're going to rebuke somebody, surely you should at least be able to prove your point, or is that not necessary in the left field?
If you actually read what was said in the article in question & what the statistician Johnny said you would notice that it's pure semantics (unless of course you are blinded by the red tinted glasses given out by the Huff to certain posters.
Here is what Cameron said in the interview
"This is a long-term challenge, but progress is being made: while most new jobs used to go to foreign workers, in the past year more than three quarters have gone to British workers."
And here's what Dannat said
"Britons made up 76% of the increase in the number of people in work over the same period. "These official statistics do not show the number of 'new jobs'," he wrote".
So in other words, what he is saying that 76% of the new people in work are Britons
and DC is stating that 3/4 of new jobs went to Britons.
Dannat by his own admission doesn't have the number of new jobs, but can still "rebuke" DC for stating what most people would accept as basically the same thing.”
“Obviously. Which is why I said "mostly" and why I further qualified my comment by pointing out that law enforcers have a particular duty of professionalism and impartiality, otherwise the end result is that the law becomes mistrusted and breaks down. I've had numerous encounters with nursing, paramedic and care staff over the years and never observed a single important example of unprofessionalism. I've had minimal experience of the police, yet could give numerous examples of significantly poor - even criminal - standards.”
“We expect it of nurses, paramedics, care workers etc… and they mostly seem to manage. Those that dish out the law, however, should have higher standards than most and should expect major consequences when they fail.”
Ben Wilson on Aug 19, 2014 at 12:59:17
“Do they? All 3 groups of workers are never out of the news for a catalogue of shortcomings or abject failures. Superbugs, Ambulance waiting time, homecare abuse, thieving homecare workers. Non of the professions including the police have a large queue of people wanting to do the jobs and few places are in a position to be picky because they need staff now, not when the right person comes along.”
alan king on Aug 19, 2014 at 04:46:05
“glad you said mostly amongst the others could write a list as long as your arm on where they failed people and thats only what we find out about”
“Your source was the Pew Charitable Trust for pity's sake. You've added nothing to it apart from unfounded opinion. Christianity is dying out in the west, churches are closing, people are demanding a clearer line to be drawn between church and state. These are simply the facts that Pew would contradict with its agenda-led 'research' and its bogus conclusions which you so desperately cling to.”
Talossa on Aug 20, 2014 at 21:05:54
“> Your source
Which you didn't read, evidently. The poll confirms the results found at other sources quoted in the article -- but of course those must be "biased" too because your definition of "biased" means "any data that do not support my theory."
Many things are dying out in the West as the West itself is dying out. Church attendance is dropping; so is concert attendance, sports attendance, college enrollment, and in fact population itself in many important countries (not accounting for immigration).
You might find it informative to search this phrase: "Let’s dispense with the crude metric of IQ and look at the actual lives".”
“Of course I read the link, how else do you think I came by the above info? By biased, I mean agenda-driven. Obviously. So, no links supporting your last comment then? If there are a hundred "scholarly papers" that can't be traced to some right wing agenda then you could at least suggest one of them...”
Talossa on Aug 18, 2014 at 20:29:49
“So you're putting the cart before the horse then. If "biased" means "agenda driven", you seem to be assuming that any conclusion reached that differs from yours must (of necessity) be "agenda driven" and hence "biased."
> no links
Why should I provide a link to a source you have already dismissed without even knowing what it is? What possible information would you allow yourself to glean from it?”
“Still no verification of that - at least not the sort you normally demand when it's the evidence of some Johnny Foreigner. Yes I live in London and have done for decades - don't have a garden though, so no fairies sadly.”
alan king on Aug 19, 2014 at 05:18:40
“Peter as you know some faries just live in peoples minds