Oh boy. It's like trying to fix a stubborn cowlick while wearing boxing gloves.
Republicans just do not, will not, uh uh, want to cooperate in this little thing called Democracy. Period. And their game plan looks like this:
(Pardon the crude attempt at a Vonnegut-like visual aid.)
The proof that they will never, ever let this president -- this Democratic president -- tell them what's what is that no matter what he posits in terms of fixing all the things Bush broke, things which always could have been improved upon, things which would benefit less fortunate Americans, things which would restore our prestige abroad, which would restore the warmth to the nation's character, the Republicans look at him (and by extension the majority of America) with dead eyes, crossed arms and do absolutely nothing.
No alternative plans, suggestions, advice. No involvement, curiosity, no moments of introspection. Allowing violently disposed fringe elements to steer policy when that job used to be the bailiwick of legislators and operatives schooled in poly-sci. It's an approach that begs the question:
Do Republicans actually like Democracy?
Really. Their strategy seems to be one of complete disdain for the last 200 or so years of that defining American civil exercise. They are behaving as though they've discarded all pretense of caring or participation. Weird.
Ooh! I know! Perhaps the Republicans are playing into some master plan wherein all power is gradually, systematically leeched from the masses and centralized into a snug, capitalistic, corporate version of an aristocracy, keeping The People perpetually strained but entertained by shiny yet easily broken/disposable/replaceable baubles and only minimally involved in the basic running of the country so as to provide the citizenry with an illusion of democratic participation and therefore allowing them to distinguish their lives from that of common, old fashioned serfs.
Nah. That would be too simplistic, too 19th century. But back to today:
Even after realizing that Obama, master of many things they aren't, is also demonstrating a centrist rather than a dreaded leftist approach to governance, in many ways incorporating aspects which they themselves have favored in the past, to put forward his workable agenda as opposed to the armageddon/fascist/socialist dystopia the frothing Republican mouthpieces warned of, they still refuse to play.
Damn vexing! So, what could it be?
Hmm. Could it... is it because... oh, I don't know... is it because he's...
...black?
Nah. That would be too simplistic, too 19th century. Oh. Wait a minute...
Follow Steven Weber on Twitter: www.twitter.com/@TheStevenWeber
Chris Weigant: Obama Poll Watch -- March, 2010
Everyone was looking for a healthy bounce in Obama's poll numbers after health reform passed. This bounce has either failed to materialize yet, or is so gradual it likely won't end up being called a "bounce."
you said:
"I feel you are the one confusing what I am saying. Believe in whatever you choose. Just be sure that your belief system is not knowingly causing harm to many others."
I don't believe that my "belief system" (Christianity) is causing harm to others. Are some of it's followers? unfortunately yes. Please don't confuse the two.
This debate started because I stated my belief that Jesus is the only way. And you claimed that that was "judgmental and biased". Are you still saying that this belief (system) is "judgmental and biased"... "causing harm to others"??
Because if so, what you are really saying is that if my beliefs are offensive (which I guess constitues as "causing harm") to others, I should abandon them... right? I should just abandon my faith that governs my entire life, I should just abandon my Creator who sacrificed His Son for me... I should just abandon it if others are offended...? (Oh you WISH liberals.. dream on!)
Do I need to go any further here? And how is this not offensive and disprespectful of my right to believe as I choose???
This IS liberal ignorance and hypocrisy.
No... it is you who is not addressing my point.. the point that started this debate.. that I am wrong (not my belief but ME) for believing that Jesus is the only way. I've proven that you are wrong and you are ignoring this...
I haven't stated that you "hate Christianity" since you pointed out that your problem is with "right wing" Christians. "This shows fear"? No, this shows avoidance on your part of the issue being debated because you realize that you are wrong. But in typical dishonest liberal fashion you try to turn it around and make it look like I'm the one who is wrong.
You said: "Millions and millions of people don't believe in the same religion you do. And they never will. So what? You live the best life you can and should do so without causing others harm. I believe that includes learning to gracefully deal with the fact that many will continue to take offense when Christians keep getting in their face and insisting that Jesus is the only way, and that they are completely right about it and that is that."
And to also understand that statements of belief..ARE assertions that they believe they are right... just as statements of your beliefs are assertions that you believe you are right... grace on your part is needed here... understanding that it is okay to believe that we are right.. just as you believe that you are right. How many times must this be explained to you before you get it??
You said: "It's a tall order to have to really think for yourself. It can create doubt sometimes. And that is probably what so many Christians fear most – that they might have to adjust their thinking. Scary, I know."
It's a "tall order" for liberals to understand that those with opposing views have the same rights to them as they do without automatically being labeled intolerant. And that if you label conservatives intolerant for having a different view than yours.. then the same should apply to you.
It's a "tall order" for many liberals to understand the definition of hypocrisy.
You said: "I don't believe that my "belief system" (Christianity) is causing harm to others. Are some of it's followers? unfortunately yes. Please don't confuse the two."
Oh trust me, I am not the one confused. Conservative Christians have done unbelievable harm to millions over the past decades. They have supported laws to remove choice, equality, and even funding for the sick. Simply because their "religion" tells them to do so. You know this is true. So what do you do about all this hypocrisy you are surrounded by? Do you question your pastor? Do you put down your fellow "Christians" for being narrow-minded and unloving?
You said: "I should just abandon my faith that governs my entire life?"
I never said that. However, I bet you have never seriously given thought to the possibility that your faith is misplaced in some instances. It's called "blind faith." Open eyes can help you become a better person. A truer Christian if you will.
You said: "that I am wrong (not my belief but ME) for believing that Jesus is the only way."
No. What I said was it is offensive to those who don't feel the same. When was the last time a religious liberal came knocking on your door asking you to convert?
(cont.)
You said: "And Christianity is of course based on a the 'factual' record of the Bible, not just thoughts in your mind."
At least Christianity HAS the record of the Bible... which even though it cannot be proven as fact in some instances, it cannot be disproved either. And in many instances there is corroborating documentation outside of the faith. And also, which you neglected to acknowledge.. the many prophecies that have been realized.
No, sorry... it's not just thoughts in my or anyone else's mind. The Bible has the credentials to back it up.
"The word I used was ignorant. But yes, you are also arrogant."
No, way back in the beginning you commented to someone else about "the arrogance of kams".
I have to say that you have become more & more arrogant (and insulting) as this debate has progressed.
You are proving my point.. it's pride and arrogance that prevents many from humbling themselves and acknowledging God. Your ego & pride are showing in your responses to my points.
I've proven my point to you..and you clearly are not going to acknowledge that.. the point of how wrong you (and Johnlorenzo ) were for labeling me as intolerant etc. for having a view that did not agree with your liberal view....
the extremely ignorant view that my believing that Jesus is the only way is intolerant. Again, you can disagree with my view all you want... that's your right...
It's hypocritical ignorance... or as I call it.."Reverse Ignorance"..
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/a-troubling-new-social-ill-reverse-ignorance/
You said: "This perhaps one of the most ridiculous and comical things you've written so far. And you've written so many. Any credible scientist would laugh out loud at the very notion of comparing the 'credentials' (whatever that is supposed to mean) of one religion to another. NONE of them have any factual legitimacy."
Arrogance again...
So, by your reasoning historical books in general have no factual legitimacy. (?)
The Bible is a historical document. There is archeological evidence and documentation of other historians to corroborate much of it.
And are you saying that scientists only work with proven factual information?
Maybe I should have said a group of scientists instead of "a" scientist... the CONSENSUS would be that Christianity has the better credentials.
And speaking of consensus... that Matthew and John were written 150 years later is not....NOT the consensus... could you please state where you got your information from?
You said: "But in typical dishonest liberal fashion you try to turn it around and make it look like I'm the one who is wrong."
You seem to have the GOP-conservative speak down perfectly. Conservatives can try to spin it around but liberals are not the ones making up "facts" or spreading twisted stories.
You said: "your implication was that I was "getting in your face" for stating that I believe that Jesus is the only way."
No, you are putting words into a different order again. My point was that if any religion's point-of-view comes from the perspective that belief in that religion is the one and only way a person can ever be saved, loved, correct, chosen, etc. that religion has some real problems. A great creator would not have made people so that he/she could hate them simply because they have followed their free will. If these individuals have committed harm or murder, society is the one to punish them. And they should be punished. Humans know that no one can live in a society over-run by hateful, greedy, murderous people.
You said: "It's a "tall order" for many liberals to understand the definition of hypocrisy."
I believe conservatives will never understand where their pious hypocrisy's lie.
You said: "That is the precise description of the God of the Old Testament."
Could you please quote the verses?
Christians would never call God "petty" and "narrow minded". Those are your words.
You said: "You are simply incapable of thinking on a higher plane than one that asserts 'my view is the only correct one, and everyone else is going to he11 for not believing exactly as I do'. "
You call it a "higher plane"? People who are capable of seeing things from a perspective other than their own call it ignorance.
Now I notice that you are using the word "only". That I am ignorant for believing that my view is the "only" correct one. So, you ARE claiming that there is more than one truth. That's impossible, illogical and unreasonable. There can only be one truth. There is no basis or even a justifiable argument for multiple creators or supreme beings. It doesn't make sense. If you believe that is the case, could you please state what your references are for these "truths"?
cont...
Now, to further show (again) how ridiculous this view of yours is I will point out (again) that while you are finding me intolerant for believing that my view is the correct one, can I ask if you believe that YOUR view is the correct one? The view that there is more than one "truth"? Do you believe this (your belief) to be true? I would think that you do. That IS what your are insisting I believe and insisting that I am intolerant for not believing. So HOW does that make you any different from me??? You are allowed to think that your view is true... because it's YOUR view I guess, but I am wrong for believing that my view is true.
Your erroneous and HYPOCRITICAL liberal views make no sense!
Then perhaps I need to re-restate my basic premise. I am saying that there is MORE THAN ONE WAY to what a person would consider spiritual enlightenment or 'truth' (heaven, nirvana, salvation, etc). And your way isn't the only one. I'm not saying that there is more than one God, and so I don't also want give the impression that I mean that there is more than one 'truth', in the strict definition of that word. But as I've said before, when I refer to spiritual truth, I don't mean the same thing as something quantifiable or measurable like a scientific truth. What is spiritual truth to you will not be the same as for someone else, simply because what you believe to be spiritually true is a construct of your own individual mind. It does not exist tangibly in the material world in the same way that the moon or Mount Everest does. I say that as a scientist, someone who spends their life measuring and analyzing things in the material world. When you, or my Mother, or the Pope, describe what you believe to be spiritually true, you are not describing anything that can be independently verified. Hence claiming that you've found the one truth is like me claiming that you haven't. We can go back and forth forever on it.
It is coming.Didnt we become free from fighting the oppressive King of the English?
Why would you want more government?
If I work hard and make money why would I want to give it to the government?
If I was to give it all away I would rather give it to my family or ones I loved?
Did we not use to be on top why do we want to do what someone tells us
I dont think America was built on being told what to do?
That is what I see.
Do you like having police protection, fire protection, EMS on call, public parks, sewers, waste treatment plants, highways and roads, libraries, public schools, county hospitals, federally funded universities and research centers (most medical research in this country is federally funded), courts, prisons, the electrical grid, the air traffic control system, the military, coast guard, embassies and consulates, food inspections, border patrol, etc?
It is no longer 1780. Life in a modern industrialized society requires all of the things mentioned above and more. Back when this nation gained independence, most of those things either didn't exist or were nowhere near as necessary.
Taxes are a fact of modern life. No one likes to pay them, in the same way that no one likes to do laundry or mow the lawn. But it is a requirement. Anti-tax id.iots like you are exactly like a teenager, who while living at home, thinks that they don't need their parents. That is until they move out on their own and find out just how much they relied on them. You have never lived in a part of the world where the things I mentioned above do not exist. I have. The true twisted irony is that you ingrates take all of those things totally for granted, and don't think that you should have to pay for them. You must assume that somebody else is supposed to pay for all that stuff.
It is true, I do believe that liberals (liberalism) is bad for America. I do believe that it is in direct conflict with God's will in so many ways. I understand that others do not agree with me and follow different faiths. And I will defend their right to continue to believe as they choose. But I will also continue to express MY beliefs that I ALSO have a right to. And by doing so, that DOES NOT mean that I am TELLING others what to believe. That is one of the many misconceptions of liberals. No one is forced to discuss religion with me. I desire to debate different beliefs with anyone who wants to. And please note that I used the word "debate". It's a concept that I truly believe liberals cannot comprehend.
Yes, I think it is "bad" to discourage debate. To attack anyone with an opposing belief as intolerant. That is definitely one of the things that I do not like about modern day liberalistic ideology. This belief can actually be characterized as juvenile or immature. It's not logical or reasonable... it's ignorant. It is actually, ironically, intolerance of opposing views. It is the truly ignorant hypocritically calling the non-ignorant.. ignorant. I gave it a name... "reverse ignorance".
http://tothewire.wordpress.com/a-troubling-new-social-ill-reverse-ignorance/
cont...
To twist my expression of my beliefs as me insisting that everyone believe as I do is also ignorant. I would never expect someone to just believe because I "tell" them to. Who thinks like that??? Liberals apparently because this accusation comes from them all the time.
By you assuming that I am insisting that others believe what I believe just because it is what I believe makes you the ignorant one.
Here is the definition of debate..
de·bate (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v.intr.
1. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument
Please note that NO WHERE will you find the word "intolerance".
There is no room here to have the type of debate you think you need. Suffice it to say that because of your opinions, and beliefs, I can tell you have not been engaged in what I call the "broader world." Because you fail to even recognize the most basic of hate and terrors the right-wing Christians have wrought upon the world. This has been mainly towards diverse groups and other religions that have never tried to hurt or eradicate right-wing Christians. But humans can only take so much of this biased hatred. If you feel threatened or not listened to today you can thank all those pious right-wing, judgmental Christians that have fought for years to squash and silence the rest with their laws, denial of equal rights, and beliefs.
Intolerant: adjective; a: unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights
And then you said: "Your stance, that you have found the ONLY path leading to salvation/spiritual enlightenment/'truth' makes you the very embodiment of intolerance."
I'm going to try one more time to "deprogram" you.
How..HOW is stating my belief... MY belief that I have a RIGHT to... how does that translate into my unwillingness to grant equal freedom of expression to others???
I haven't. And I also haven't hurled insults at others for stating their beliefs.. on the contrary I am begging for a debate where I can hear opposing beliefs.. to discuss them. YOU on the other hand have insulted me for not agreeing with your belief.. a distorted belief that everyone's truth is the truth. You are telling me to agree or shut up because I am being intolerant for disagreeing. Incredible!!!
Disagreement does not equal intolerance....please say it with me again... disagreement does NOT equal intolerance.
Excuse me... EXCUSE ME PLEASE.. but.. I will NOT respect a "religion" that advocates the killing of non believers. I will NOT respect a "religion" that claims that Jesus is the brother of lucifer. I will NOT respect a "religion" that worships satan. This is twisted liberalistic ideology and it's RE TAR DED!
This IS the aggressive liberal agenda in action...you truly seem to not realize that you've been brainwashed, that you are one of millions of pawns being used to promote corrupt and erroneous liberal ideology. An ideology that attempts to silence those with opposing views. What hypocritical irony that is!
I really don't think you (and many other liberal minded) realize what the true agenda of liberalism is... to stifle or fully eradicate Christianity from society... from the world.
Disgusting liberal tactics... "agree with us or be labeled intolerant"... which no one wants that social stigma, especially today, due to aggressive liberal tactics that have been going on for years.
Wake up liberals... most of you don't even realize that you are being used. And many of you are serving so well.
I am an elitist, I realize. But in a country where 60% of the population doesn't believe in evolution, I am left with little alternative. Americans are simply too stupid to know what is good for them. The Democrats are tasked, as Bill Maher has said, with dragging the hillbilly half of America into the next century.
As for your claim that no scintillla of evidence. Here is just one video which seems to contradict your argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPkjyMhaFOw The fact is that the Tea Partiers were not engaged in the "honest and fair debate" you say is needed. It's not happening because the GOP (and Tea Partiers) automatically oppose anything Obama puts on the table.
You can want to sweep the vitriol of the Tea Partiers and the GOP under the rug, but it won't work. There's way too much evidence to the contrary. Palin's gun sight map. Congressman shouting out "baby killer" on the house floor McCain saying no matter what Obama proposes he's going vote against it. This is an "honest and fair debate" as far as your concerned??
Policies should be the focus of the discussion. The GOP won't do that. They voted (as a block) against HCR even though it contained many policies which (before Obama had supported them) they had touted as solutions. Now that Obama embraced them, those same ideas are "socialism." They've done this time and time again.
So before you fire off an unsubstantiated post, perhaps you should do your research first.
In the end, we are our own largest enemy with the behavior of the current Republicans politicians. Instead of finding a common ground it is the old Bush doctrine "Either you are 100% with us and if not you are against us". No room for compromises and logic!
It is up to the citizens to start to realize this behavior and make an end to it. Only they can stop it by demonstrating against such doctrine. In the end we are not Republicans, Democrats, Independent, or any other affiliate. In the end we are Americans and we should start to act like Americans. Unite, find a common ground and make the best out of any situation. We should unite and care about our fellow citizens, regardless who they are, what they can afford, etc.
In the end it is all about how can we get the best for our self regardless of the outcome for the nation. Only a few privileged ones will benefit and the majority will have to pay for it. Unfortunately it is that more people are listening to threats and horror stories and believe them over looking for reality.
The tactics by the Republicans during this congress is not only immoral but dangerous. They are actually the ones that are defeating the US and not any economic downturn or any terrorist. With their action they are finally achieving what the south could not achieve during the civil war. Divide the United States of America. Yes it sounds very radical but it actually is. This time it is again about ideology, not slaves but being an ultra-conservative or not.