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Teo Bishop

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How Do We Talk About Paganism?

Posted: 06/02/2012 1:52 am

I had a dream last night that I was trying to explain my Paganism to my father. He was patient, and open, and he behaved in the ideal ways that only a dream-father behaves. As I explained to him what Druid meant in a modern context, our relationship exploded into something more meaningful and transparent. It was a lovely dream.

When the phone rang this morning with his number on the screen, I thought that maybe -- just maybe -- I was a prophet. But, he hadn't called to learn about the hidden secrets of druid magic, or to pick my brain about how I envision the Gods. No, he wanted to know if it was possible to download videos from YouTube.

My father, it turns out, is a latent internet pirate.

This is not the first time that I've felt slighted by one of my parent's lack of interest in the mystical. I may be the only member of my family who would rather talk about religion than football. Our holidays, even the religious ones, are uncomfortably secular to me. I'd almost prefer my family to be fundamentalist Christians, if for no other reason than they might be willing to talk about theology as though it really meant something.

Theology, or Polytheology, or Process Theology -- these subjects are rich soil to me; good dirt for planting, and worth tending to. I'm pretty sure that my parents have different ideas about deity than I do, but I don't know that because we've never actually had a conversation about it. I've done more heart-to-heart'ing about religion on my blog, Bishop In The Grove, with my readership of relative strangers than I ever have over dinner with my family.

You just don't talk about those sorts of things.

My family is mostly Catholic, although there is a small contingency of Born Agains (as my grandma calls them), a few lapsed Episcopalians (which from the perspective of the Catholics is a double-lapse), and a good many agnostics. The Catholics present their beliefs more as assumptions about the world than as ideas to be examined, the lapsed Episcopalians know, logically, they shouldn't feel guilty for not going to church, but they still do, and the Born Agains? Well, they say things like:

"Perhaps she wouldn't have gotten sick if she'd have been more committed to the Lord."

Lovely stuff, right there.

I'm the silent Pagan in the bunch. I'm the candle burning, incense igniting, ritual doing, tarot card reading Pagan, who would be perfectly happy to discuss why they choose pray to Jesus over someone else, or what prayer really is, or whether their worship of a transcendent God ever feels lonely, or what they think death might be like. I think about these things, but I don't know how to bring them up without starting an argument.

Perhaps this is why interfaith dialogue is so difficult, too. If we don't know how to begin a conversation about faith and practice with our own families, how are we supposed to talk across the greater religious divide? It's much easier to remain silent, to avoid the awkward moments, to shore up our defenses in the event of a possible attack.

I get disappointed, though, when we avoid these conversations, because I have this deep desire to be known by the people in my life. When they don't seek to understand me, when they don't try to figure out what I mean when I say Pagan, or Druid, or any number of other tradition-specific terminology, I feel whitewashed into being simply The Son, or The Brother. I revert back to being all of the things I was by default, and none of the parts I chose for myself are brought into the light to be seen.

Perhaps this is the plight of any religious convert. We leave behind the tradition of our youth, and in doing so we alienate the people who first gave us a God, who first taught us to pray, who first told us the stories of an ancient people in a far-away desert. I wonder if the responsibility falls on our shoulders to educate our families, or if it would be more right for them to seek out a deeper understanding of who we've become.

When you take on a new religious tradition, a new spiritual name, a new title, or when you develop a new set of ritual practices, how do you go about communicating that to the people who knew you as something different? How do you open up a dialogue about transition and change with someone who finds it more comfortable to remain where they are, where they have always been? How do you testify about your own, individual truth, and can you do so without making your loved ones feel inferior, or judged?

If you've had experiences that answer any of these questions, or if you're working through a transition from one faith tradition to another and would like to testify about how that feels, please do so in the comment section. This can be a safe, constructive space to unpack our ideas, and I look forward to the dialogue.

 

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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Kelley Harrell
Neoshaman; author of 'Gift of the Dreamtime'
11:56 AM on 07/14/2012
It's a dialogue that tells itself in many cases, and we can only hope that what it's saying is accurate. So often it isn't: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelley-harrell/pagan-is-as-pagan-does_b_1573456.html
I appreciate your courage and expression. I'm glad you're writing here.
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NoSandwiches
12:48 PM on 06/12/2012
Just have to understand that some people cannot be or will not be introspective. To many religion is something to be born into and they really aren't curious enough to understand and delve into their own religion. Those people don't know enough about what they believe to have any sort of discussion about it.
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AthenasOwl
I'll show you the life of the mind...
10:22 PM on 06/07/2012
Joseph Campbell said that religion is the misunderstanding of poetry.

Neither Homer nor Moses wrote the truth as we understand scientific/historical truth, but wrote insightful poetry - something even we atheists can appreciate. Either party being doctrinal (and that can include some atheists) is what makes these "coming out" conversations difficult.

I, personally, feel drawn more to polytheists as they are generally (though I generally hate to generalize) less doctrinal than monotheists.
02:43 PM on 06/06/2012
Interfaith dialogue *is* hard, but definitely one of the most valuable endeavors that we can engage in. It's doubly hard when it's your own family you're trying to talk to.
My mom (raised Baptist, self-identifies as a Deist now) spent a goodly number of years thinking that the whole Paganism thing was just a "phase." Since then, my (Mesoamerican Pagan) sister married a Druid, my brother converted to Judaism, and I married a Catholic-- he's not really religious, but members of his family are. I've been involved in interfaith dialogue in my local community, given talks on Paganism, and publicly supporting our local Muslim population as they still struggle to build their new masjid.

Mom has mellowed quite a bit and considers the interfaith work something to be proud of. I feel very fortunate in this and I realize it's not anywhere near that easy for a lot of people.
07:38 AM on 06/06/2012
I think the conflict is only in your own mind.

It's a lot easier if you just set the religious and mystic aspect aside for a while and remember the old polytheistic traditions. There has always been a rich intercultural exchange in pagan Europe and the Mediterranean. People literally imported, exported and exchanged their beliefs. All those different cultures impregnated each others. That's the real treasure of paganism: the religious pluralism is in the first instance a cultural pluralism.

If you perceive yourself different in your belief and your belief limited by your family's belief, you are creating difference, therefore alienation.

Why should it be necessary to make one big step when you can make several little steps?

I told my family here and there that I was celebrating Samhain or Beltain, that I visited the Externsteine in Germany or some remnants of Celtic circular ramparts, an old pagan sanctuary, Stonehenge, Glastonbury. Sometimes I talked about old cultures or religions, about old pagan roots in Christian beliefs, that I visited the Pergamon Altar and the Ishtar Gate in Berlin's Pergamon Museum. And one day they found an altar in my living room with a hodgepodge of the deities, symbols and artifacts from different cultures and religions we had talked about.

That's how I introduced my spirituality to my family step after step. I showed them bit by bit, illustrating each step with a dialogue. In the end, there was no big surprise.
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Teo Bishop
Bard, Contemplative Pagan.
10:32 AM on 06/07/2012
This is a great comment. Thank you for being a part of this conversation, and for offering these ideas. I like to think that taking smaller steps, being more transparent about the less esoteric, more consistent and ordinary bits of my practice would allow for a slower, steadier movement toward understanding. Solid advice.

Blessings to you.
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Neal Jansons
Author and Poet
12:35 AM on 06/06/2012
Thank you very much for writing this. I have often felt at a loss to explain and discuss my motivations and priorities which derive from a deep spiritual life, not just because of the differences which my pagan and Thelemic affiliations create with the majority of society, but because of our culture's general attitude towards spirituality. Our modern culture does not really allow for people living their spiritual path, making choices of relationships, friendships, jobs, or where they live based upon their spiritual life. There just isn't any space for that in the modern narrative, and when someone says, as I did when I was homeless from 17-20, that they have chosen the strange or difficult things in their life for spiritual or religious reasons, they are immediately considered insane, stupid, or lying.

I feel like modern paganism and alternative spirituality is the home of the majority of modern mystics in America, simply because in most locations and cultures, to convert to a disenfranchised minority religion requires a type of commitment and zeal just to persevere in the face of the ridicule, persecution, and labeling from all sides...both the majority Christians and the secular atheists.
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Kirk Job-Sluder
06:58 PM on 06/05/2012
Interesting article. Thank you.
03:47 PM on 06/05/2012
Count your blessings Teo. You have a family that allows you to be who you are pretty unconditionally. Their love for you is not predicated on whether you have the right god or any god. If I were you I would take a good, hard look at what drives my need to engage on a topic they clearly don't want to broach and on which they allow you all the freedom you could possibly want, no strings attached. They respect you. What is it? Do you have a need for their validation? Will your beliefs be strengthened in their agreement? Are you wishing to convert them to your way of thinking? If you are that might bare some introspection.
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Teo Bishop
Bard, Contemplative Pagan.
10:47 AM on 06/07/2012
Thank you for your comment, brokerthanu. I appreciate you being a part of this conversation.

There's a way in which by writing this piece, and by exposing just one small aspect of my experience with family, I'm attempting to open up a wider conversation about the *idea* of openness and transparency about our religious expression with family. I agree with you that more introspection may be necessary, but I would assert that *we all* might engage in deeper introspection, regardless of our motivations (which are complicated and personal). That's why I write these pieces, really.

Again, thank you for your comment.

Peace to you.
10:47 AM on 06/05/2012
I think that most people just don't understand Paganism. They associate it with the "dark arts" and things of that nature, so rather than read a little about it or listen to someone who is passionate about it they just ignore it. Perhaps you should just stop trying to get them to understand your beliefs and just be content that they love you? Religion is a personal choice and no one really wants someone else to tell them how they believe and what they feel is wrong, maybe they feel you are trying to convert them to your way of belief when you speak passionately about it.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
02:17 PM on 06/05/2012
It the 'problem' is that people don't understand and make false associations, (and also assume 'talking about religion' is 'trying to convert people, hence rude conversation,' how is it supposed to help to continue to *reinforce* these false assumptions, rather than try to look at, discuss, and *deal* with them?

It's true that a lot of families aren't going to sit down to discuss cosmology and theogony, or whatnot, and that's the wrong way to approach a family estrangement, anyway, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth looking at, or that it isn't a real experience, or certainly that it's not something one might productively-post about on an interfaith forum?

One thing Teo's good for is asking questions rather like this, sometimes perhaps attaching too much importance to them in terms of *Pagan* religion, but they're also very often unattended details or undercurrents in our lives as modern people in this world.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
02:19 PM on 06/05/2012
(And another thing. )

Some things Teo says, I think a lot of Pagans will say to ourselves, 'Oh, the Christians would think that meant 'blood in the water right there,' (As much as most of the Christianity I've ever seen was about Christians trying to drive away 'doubt' like one of their 'sins', they really do think any Pagan accepting uncertainty on any point or questioning must mean 'Aha, your faith is weak, my dogmatic book-quoting will smash you.' (Laughable, but unproductive, and certainly no good for family holidays, ..but notice how quickly contemplation goes to 'conflict' even at the thought of ...non-Pagans in the room.) ...but maybe that's why for all this Internet, we don't talk too much about some things in some ways.

Minorities always have to be worried about how we 'represent.' This article is representing an interfaith issue, though. If like most threads about minority religions, it wasn't full of atheists trying to find an angle to say, 'You shouldn't exist!' ...someone might even learn something about us out there. :)
08:41 PM on 06/05/2012
I almost didn't reply anything for fear it would be misconstrued. Perhaps I should have shed a little light on why I felt the way I responded. I am Pagan, eclectic by choice since I really don't feel that one path is the only way. That being said, I don't really bother with explaining why I believe the way I do to my family too much unless they ask. I feel the way I feel and they feel the way they feel, most of them are atheist but allow that the Earth based "religions" make more sense. I enjoy Teo's writing and this is the first time I ever commented, I feel that since our spiritual paths are quite personal why feel the need to force people to learn about it if they aren't interested? When a Christian tries to sway me, I listen politely but think that behavior is one of the reasons I avoid them. If they ask me why I feel the way I do, I explain as much as I can and want to.
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gloriaswanson43
Ask and you will get more info.
10:35 AM on 06/05/2012
Indirectly through facebook and telling 2 other family members and then watching their reactions to see how to proceed further. The words "God" and "pray" came up. I let that go, no reason to argue. (from Christian to atheist)
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mustbelove
Rumi wannabe
10:20 AM on 06/05/2012
I am a Sufi who also identifies with a lot of earth centered traditions. Sufis say that the universe is the original Quran. Many ayat (verses) in Quran tell us to reflect on nature (ie- Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the difference of night and day are tokens of His Sovereignty for men of understanding. Quran 3:190).

A hadith refers to that verse:
The Noble Prophet (sa) asked Abu Hurairah: “How do you contemplate?”

“As stated by Allah in the Qur'an: '(Men of understanding) reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth.' I too reflect upon the wonders of the heavens and the earth,” he replied.

The Noble Prophet (sa) remarked, “One hour of your contemplation is better than one year of worship.”

I think Pagans and Muslims can discuss a lot of common areas like contemplation of nature and animal rights (there are many many hadith on animal rights; Muhammad was very much an animal rights advocate).

The Christians and the Pagans by Dar Williams:
http://youtu.be/t_KiHRHwaAs

Peace be with all creation.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
02:01 PM on 06/05/2012
Peace, man. Definitely that's become one of our little Yuletide classics, actually even a slice of life for a lot real Pagan people. (That's why.)

But, yeah, interfaithwise between Muslims and we Pagans, you guys definitely ought to send the Sufis. Just ease up on the Koran-salesmanship: we do love books but 'quoting 'Scripture' to 'justify' things does tend to make us glaze over. Especially if it's to 'sell' the 'authority' of the rest of such a book/book-God. You should see what we deal with here in America. :)

But there's a reason Rumi is so respected here, as a poet and mystic and all.

Probably goes both ways. World religions should be sending our mystics, seers, and storytellers to greet each other, (as it once was,) not armies, politicians, bankers, and dogmatarians.

We might just be able to accomplish something there. Or at least we usually have a lot better conversations than in political forums. *wink.* :)
08:38 AM on 06/05/2012
As a British Pagan I have read a lot of religious articles and opinions on the internet and the conclusion I have come to is that religion seems so very important to people in the US re how they relate to each other. I'm sure there are small pockets of the religious in the UK that MAY feel the same but on the whole it is not the same here. Religion is private. We don't care whether our neighbours/work colleagues/family members go to church (or other religious building) or not. It's not something which even occurs to most people to be bothered about. You are accepted on the basis of your personality. Don't get me wrong, conversations about spiritual matters can happen and do, but it's a deliberately raised issue, possibly raised by a news event or because you are mixing with similar minded people ie at a Pagan Moot, or church. Your parents sound like parents from this country. They know you for being you; their son.... whatever else you are is your business. Show them the same courtesy......
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
01:46 PM on 06/05/2012
Well, it *is* different in America, that doesn't mean the issues go away when it's American Christian family you're dealing with. Certainly not to say one thing's better than the other, but see my post below. (We American Pagans do, like the country, have a lot of roots in old Albion. :) )
03:34 PM on 06/05/2012
The part of the puzzle that you are missing: in the UK you are the descendants of peoples who were converted to christianity (one way or another) centuries ago and people who are newly arrived and are on YOUR native turf. Over here we are the descendants of people who forcibly converted others and in many cases slaughtered them; as well as the survivors of wars of conquest, slavery and the newly arrived. Some of the founders of this country were religious fanatics and some embraced the ideals of plurality, unity and democracy manifest in the Iroquois confederacy. ALL of them were culturally christians who believed in some version of manifest destiny and the need to conquer and kill "the heathen". THAT is the flavor of Christianity that prevailed.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
06:58 AM on 06/05/2012
I think it's really helped the Pagans in my family to be pretty patient with the Catholics about this... One thing about family dynamics in the Christianized society is that there too often seems to be a way of treating everything like you're 'suspected of doing something wrong' and needing to 'justify,' ...I think what really helps is when they can see for themselves that the Pagans in the family are really much less stressed-out and afraid about matters spiritual, that, yeah, we're actually good people and it's not some frivolity or act of rebellion to spite them or any of the other stuff people are inclined to say.

I can see how those of us who are particularly inclined to intellectually-explore and explain things and communicate can miss that fact. If you just *be* the Pagans in the family, let them see for themselves who you are, and then if your folks have any questions they might come from real interest in knowing something about your life and all.

We're Pagans. With no need to convert anyone, religion doesn't have to be an *argument.* :)
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SylvreWolfe
01:28 AM on 06/05/2012
I am the sole Pagan in my family of non-practicing christians. My dad was raised Baptist, my mom was raised Methodist. I have discovered that they really don't want to discuss my beliefs and, without bothering to talk to me about beliefs, they have already decided that I am a Satanist or Satan worshiper. I gave up trying to share with them and just do my thing. I am actually more devout in my practices than they are in theirs.
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mustbelove
Rumi wannabe
10:22 AM on 06/05/2012
I'm sorry it has been this way for you.
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zarafasimba
War is never an option
11:56 AM on 06/05/2012
I am sorry that has happened to you, but I can relate to your problems. After I changed faith my family threw me out, but finally they have accepted me back. They always try to convert me to Christianity and say I am following Satan (and you know what follows). All I do is breathe each day and try to show them I am still the same person but more complete because I know who I am.
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trekie70
Lifelong bibliophile and political junkie
09:04 PM on 06/04/2012
I can definitely relate to what you're feeling, Teo. When I was eleven, my family left the Church of God and joined the UMC. While too young to really understand the theological difference, I have since learned that many family members outside of my immediate household thought that my sister and I were destined for an unfulfilled life. The reason? Methodists don't practice speaking in tongues. My maternal grandmother went so far as to contact a local Assembly of God minister and request he conduct a visitation to try to bring us back to the fold.

More recently, I left the UMC and joined my local Unitarian-Universalist congregation. My parents were very supportive and since moving out to Arkansas to be near me, have also joined. Once again, there are extended family members who don't understand our decision. This largely has to do with the fact that they have a terminal case of tunnel vision from a lifetime in the extremely conservative Assembly of God culture.