Obama vs. Clinton on Honduras?

Apparent differences between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are threatening to confuse American policy towards the coup in Honduras.

The differences seem to go back to the 2008 presidential primaries when Obama embraced a broad new direct diplomacy while Clinton hewed to a tougher traditional stance. Clinton era advisers like James Carville and Stanley Greenberg had gone on to become political consultants for Latin American presidential candidates favoring free trade policies in Venezuela, Bolivia, Mexico, and Argentina, as depicted in the documentary film "Our Brand Is Crisis."

Now Obama, fresh from a hemispheric summit in Trinidad, is trying to collaborate with the Organization of American States [OAS] in its unified pressure and isolation against the coup leaders in Honduras. The newly-appointed "foreign minister" of the coup-based regime has called Obama "that little black guy who doesn't even know where Tegucigalpa is located." [NYT, July 12] So much for the character of the coup plotters.

Secretary Clinton, while formally supporting the Obama/OAS initiative, has questionable links with the coup leaders through two close associates. First, her pugnacious media spokesman from campaign days, Lanny Davis, is the paid spinner and lobbyist for the Latin American equivalent of the Chamber of Commerce, the alliance supporting h leader Robert Micheletti. One of Davis' first moves so far was to announce that "foreign minister" Enrique Ortez had been removed from office for calling Obama an ignorant "little black guy." Otherwise, Davis is a launching a full-court press to change Obama's policy in Honduras from rejecting the coup as illegitimate to one of open-ended talks that could last indefinitely, allowing the coup to consolidate.

At the same time, another close Clinton ally, Bennett Ratcliff, was appointed -- along with his interpreter -- as an actual member of the negotiating team for the coup in current talks being held in Costa Rica. According to a source cited by the New York Times, "Every proposal that Micheletti's group presented was written or approved by the American." [July 12]. Who, one wonders, does Bennett report to? He comes from the high-powered consulting firm of recently-deceased Bob Squier.

Obama cannot long support both the OAS efforts at isolating the coup plotters and also tolerate Clinton-identified political consultants lobbying on behalf of the military-installed regime.

Even the Clinton-chosen mediator of the talks, Costa Rican president Oscar Arias, told the US that Honduran elections scheduled for November will be illegitimate if sponsored by the coup organizers. [NYT, July 12]

Obama could recall the American ambassador to Honduras. In addition to suspending $18.5 million in US military assistance, Obama can disallow the $180 million presently in the pipeline. Spending that money is arguably illegal under the 1997 Leahy amendment to prohibit assistance to a military which overthrows an democratically-elected government, as Honduran forces did on June 29.

The background narrative here is the rise of an irrational Cold War mentality, echoed by the mainstream media, in response to the surge of independent nationalism in Latin America. Anyone who has spent time in Honduras knows it is desperately poor, lacks a social safety net, and is dominated by an extremely repressive military trained and supported by the United States. But the Beltway and the Pentagon detect a threat in the Honduran government's alliance on certain issues with Venezuela. The specific threat is that President Zelaya wanted a popular referendum this week on whether Honduran voters wished to vote on a constitutional assembly, which could lead, in the future, to a voter-mandated revision of term limits on the presidency. Thus the coup.

If the US fear of new bogeymen seems overdone, one must ponder Clinton's other gaffe of the week, this one exposed by Washington Post reporters. Our well-briefed and highest foreign policy official actually declared that Iran was building a monster embassy in Nicaragua, "and you can only imagine what that's for." This flap was about an embassy, not about a military base. But the embassy allegation wasn't even true. One wonders how old cronies might have misled Clinton into this fantasy projection. The largest embassy in Nicaragua continues to be the American one. [Washington Post, July 13.]

Comments

[AntonioSosa]

Hillary is on the same page as Obama.

In agreement with Obama’s policy of hurting our friends and helping our enemies, Clinton handed democratic Hondurans a poisoned apple -- Oscar Arias as a mediator.

Arias’s recommendation that a criminal thug like Zelaya be reinstated in Honduras is insulting and despicable to any honest and law-abiding human being!

But it was to be expected from Oscar Arias, who PRETENDS to support peace, but has never really defended peace.

Arias helped Chavez/Ortega enslave Nicaraguans. Ronald Reagan wanted the Sandinistas and their leader Daniel Ortega vanquished. But Arias got the Sandinistas to “agree to hold internationally supervised elections”. And we can see the results now -- Nicaragua is now being enslaved by Chavez/Ortega.

Oscar Arias has NOT advanced and will NOT advance the cause of peace. On the contrary, as we can see in Honduras, Arias is doing the opposite – he is helping the forces of violence and evil – Castro, Chávez and Zelaya – trample on the law and on the human rights of the Honduran people.

Oscar Arias is the perfect example of how the Nobel Prize, which has been politicized, is biased and corrupt. It’s seldom if ever awarded to the really deserving, like Pope John Paul II. It is often awarded to people who can be used by the forces of evil to manipulate public opinion, as it’s happening now with Oscar Arias regarding Honduras.

[higgins1990]

"It seems that Obama and Clinton are great at checkers, not so great at chess – skilled at hopping over one another, but not so adept at strategy."

http://www.newmajority.com/obamas-evolving-position-on-honduras/

[WDArcher]

If Richard Nixon had been removed from office for specific violations of the law, would that have been a "coup"?

The Honduran Supreme Court ordered him removed from office for violating the constitution. The Honduran Congress voted 153-6 to confirm the action. The military did not and does not run he country.

How you can say that a coup has occurred when the ruling party hasn't even changed mystifies me.

Barack Obama bullying the Honduran people into accepting his will in place of their own laws ought to be frightening to anyone who genuinely cares about respect for other nation's laws.

But Obama cares more about sucking up to Hugo Chavez and the Castro Brothers than about what's right.

Zalaya's goal is to have himself declared President for Life. The prospect of someone doing that frightens the Honduran people so much that they created this extraordinary clause in their constitution describing exactly the procedure the country used in response to what Zalaya did.

If the USA is able to force Honduras to accept a Dictator against the will of it's own elected legislature and judiciary, then Barack Obama will have been shown to be just another American thug supporting South American dictatorship. The fact that he's supporting left wing dictatorships instead of right wing dictatorships is not a change in US policy.

His message to the citizens of South America is being delivered: America is your boss and you'll do as we say or else.

[PatHerd]

A question for Tomorrowman, apart from why is Honduras soooo poor, is why keep what they have. What I said before: Why change a Regan era constitution that was put in place Jan 11 1982 for a Chavez era constitution (still unproven). I have been in Nicaragua, Ecuador and Venezuela during elections and have seen, especially in Nicaragua and Venezuela, that what they call pure democratic voting is true, if you are a card carrying militant of the socialist party. If you note, Honduras did not make the news in the past 20 years over their political system, now how about the rest of the countries mentioned.

This was the first real test of the young Honduran democracy. It was the majority of the people that began calling on their representatives to take action to control Zelaya. Zelaya had offered good deals to many of his old Liberal party members to join his group, including Michiletti, and those representitives spent almost two months evaluating legal issues and the public's stand on the issues before proceeding with the actions taken against Zelaya.

Now Zelaya, after visiting the U.S. to work out a solution, goes with what Chavez tells him: go to Honduras now and fight and whatever happens all of ALBA are backing him.

[tomorrowman58]

And dont blame everything on Chavez. I know hes convenient but....

[FloresdelaHoz]

Let's not do anything impulsive. Castro and Hugo Chavez have geo-political goals for Honduras that are not friendly to the US. Venezuela is not a free country, but it is not a maximum security facility like Cuba. At least so far.

Venezuela is an economic basket case. Productive farmland and cattle ranches that made Venezuela self sufficient 10 years ago are now unproductive ghettos where the poor live day to day. Oil went to $143 a barrel and Hugo used the money to arm his country to the teeth rather than build hospitals, schools and universities. Hugo has driven foreign multinationals out of the country and with that over 300,000 middle class jobs in Caracas alone.

Now it is fair to say that capitalism has been abused in the region as it has on Wall Street. Today, the facts on the ground are that Castro and Chavez are heros among the poor. The Oligarchies do exist as they do here in the US. Nonetheless, the majority of people in LatAm dislike the Oligarchy more because they are associated with inside dealing than class envy. Sounds like us here in the US. The World Bank and the IMF also contributed to this regional "Capitalism Crisis" with their awful austerity budget mandates that punished the working and middle class.

We need to make capitalism work again in LatAm and in the US. Castro and Hugo cannot be the answer. Obama has work cut out for him. Godspeed.

[PatHerd]

I have to agree that Obama hired his biggest rival in Hillary.

Now, what if Obama decided he could avoid a problem with Hillary in 2012 by putting in a new constitution. This would be a constitution drawn up in France and based on a single party socialist government where the party members are called militants. To install this new constitution Obama decides to call a Constitutional Convention and declares that by having a poll that has at least a 7% participation of the public that he can at any time after that poll call his Constitutional Convention to approve the new constitution. Honduras was in this position on a Sunday morning with their president calling people to the polls.

[tripletango]

Zelaya basically fired himself and left Honduras as a private citizen escorted by the Military.
Please see explanation by Octavio Sanchez and I quote him below

Constitutional assemblies are convened to write new constitutions. When Zelaya published that decree to regulate an “opinion poll” about the possibility of convening a national assembly he acted against the unchangeable articles of the constitution that deal with the prohibition of reelecting a president and of extending his term. His actions showed intent.
How is that kind of intent sanctioned in our Constitution? With the immediate removal of those involved in the action as stated in article 239 of the Constitution which reads: “No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.” Notice that the rule speaks about intent and that it also says immediately
This immediate sanction might sound draconian, but every country knows its own enemies and it is the black letter of our supreme law. Requiring no previous trial might be crazy, but in Latin America a President is no ordinary citizen, it is the most powerful figure of the land and historically the figure has been above the law.

[RoloTomassi]

Once again we see any article about the Honduran coup blanketed with the wholly misleading and very politically skewed ravings of rightwing, pro-oppression supporters of the crimes against the Honduran president. They never fail to cite the absurd constitutional nonsense as an excuse; the notion that Zelaya "violated the constitution" is utterly meaningless, as the current version of the Honduran constitution is nothing more than an elitist piece of claptrap designed to keep rightwing corporatists and monied interests in power at the expense of the majority of the Honduran people.

Hondurans honoring the current constitution as scacred is ridiculous; that notion is on parallel with the US allowing BushCo to totally rewrite the US constitution, and then forbidding anyone to object to the changes.

And considering the absurdities forced upon us by the Patriot Act [and I hear no one calling for the repeal of that idiocy, and we should be calling for such every day], we're not really that far apart in regards to having any sort of viable democracy.

I have no doubt that eventually proof of US involvement in the coup will surface.

[tripletango]

Sorry Rolo. The law that was followed was the law of Honduras, not the law of rolo.
Again Mr. Sanchez, I quote
In 1982 my country adopted a new Constitution to allow our ordered return to democracy. After 19 previous constitution -two Spanish ones, three as part of the Republic of Central America and 14 as an independent nation- this one, at 28, has been the longest lasting one. It has lasted for so long because it responds and adapts to our changing reality, as seen in the fact that out of its original 379 articles, 7 of them have been completely or partially repealed, 18 have been interpreted and 121 have been reformed.
It also includes 7 articles that cannot be repealed or amended because they address issues that are critical for us. Those unchangeable articles deal with the form of government, the extent of our borders, the number of years of the presidential term; two prohibitions -one to reelect presidents and another one to change the article that states who can’t run for president- and one article that penalizes the abrogation of the Constitution.
In these 28 years Honduras has found legal ways to deal with its own problems. Each and every successful country around the world lived similar trial and error processes until they were able to find legal vehicles that adapt to their reality. The USA had one before this one which has been amended 27 times since 1789

[sabocat]

Ahem: for proof of US complicity in the coup http://www.chavezcode.com/.com/

Forget the tinfoil hat expat set. They're loony tunes.

[AntonioSosa]

NinadelSol,, although I agree with you regarding the evil nature of Chavez and Zelaya, I desagree with you about Obama, as I indicated.

I also disagree with you about Clinton. She's NOT helping Hondurans. Like Obama, Clinton is helping Chavez/Zelaya. By asking Oscar Arias to “mediate” the conflict, Clinton has provided Chavez/Zelaya the perfect cover so they can continue their efforts to enslave Hondurans!

As a “democratic” figure who has actually not helped democracy but has only PRETENDED to do it, Arias is giving Chavez/Zelaya time to send Nicaraguan and Venezuelan troops and operatives to Honduras, to lie and manipulate the international community (as they are already doing, many pretending to be “local Zelaya supporters” ), as well as create chaos and violence to intimidate and force Hondurans to submit to Marxism.

We pray Hondurans are able to defend themselves from Chavez, Zelaya and Obama, who are lying, manipulating and intimidating to force Hondurans to get infected with the AIDS of Marxism.

[NinadelSol]

Hi Antonio,
What you describe sounds like a conspiracy theory, and while I'm all for a good conspiracy, the reality is that Clinton's doing her job. Her "pretending" is good for Honduras.

Clinton is trying to keep a low profile by suggesting mediation since she is not the President, Obama is, at the end of the day, her boss. She's diplomatically trying to suggest a solution that doesn't go against the Obama admin while giving the new Honduran government TIME - to calm the fury of the opposition, solidify the new government and substantiate their charges fully, not only against Zelaya but against the entire Cabinet. Yes, this plan can backfire and Zelaya can be setting up something apocalyptical against Honduras with Chavez, but Clinton's mediation idea is buying time for the new government to get its ducks in a row.

[seasandcakes]

And what interesting charges they will be. Let's see, what did he do exactly? He wanted to have a poll/vote on whether or not the people of Honduras wanted their Constitution changed. Sounds heinous.

[AntonioSosa]

There was NOOOOO coup! NinadelSol, I agree with you that Zelaya behaved illegally and the Honduras military acted under the rightful orders of the country's Supreme Court to remove Zelaya, and to elevate the person next in line under the Honduras Constitution. This is Constitutional Democracy in action combating illegal behavior by a sitting President.

I also agree with you that Zelaya was implementing in Honduras the scheme devised by Castro and implemented by Chavez and the rest of the Marxist thugs to gain absolute power. Millions of Venezuelans, Nicaraguans, Bolivians, Ecuadorians, etc. wish we could have done what Hondurans are doing before the Marxist thugs working for Castro and Chavez enslaved our countries like Zelaya is trying to enslave Honduras.

I don't agree with you that Obama's actions were caused by his inexperience. As his parents, relatives, friends and mentors, Obama is a Marxist who hates the U.S. As such, he sides with Marxist dictators and would-be dictators who seek to enslave their countries and destroy the U.S.

It was despicable for Obama to defend, not the human rights of Hondurans and Latin Americans, but the Marxist thugs who are trampling on those human rights and working with drug cartels and Islamic terrorist to destroy the U.S!

[Butterfly8]

Nobody gets what really happened.... It was not that Zelaya called for a referendum, constitutionally the President is not allowed to call for referendums, elections, whatever. And the Supreme Court, the Electoral Board and Parliament refused to call for a referendum, and Zelaya went on with it nevertheless, thus he was destituted of office. What hypocrites that call "DEMOCRACY!" don't say is that the ballots were printed in Venezuela, and there was no one to check for a fair vote, and that Zelaya now flies Venezuelan government planes in his quest to return to office. Chavez says Obama is meddling in Honduran affairs but what about his meddling in Honduras, Nicaragua, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, etc.? The next day everyone called "coup" but as days went by, people started to see that the story had two sides, and both were wrong, and putting them in a balance, they had chosen the worst of the two.... People like Obama, Lula, Bachelet, Uribe, Alan Garcia and Tabaré Vazquez, started to look sideways, realizing that the OAS is as good as dead, since Insulza is a puppet of Chavez, and is making a fool of everyone...

[Rule Of Law]

Zelaya intended to hold a non-binding public poll ( encuesta ) about the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly. To do this, he invoked Article 5 of the Honduran Civil Participation Act of 2006. According to this act, all public officials can hold non-binding public polls to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006.

[MalleusMaleficarum]

Thanks, Tom, for elucidating this conflict of interest. For far too long, Carville, Greenberg and their partners including Rosner and Quinlan in the USA and Gould in the UK as well as others too numerous to mention -- have endlessly exploited their erstwhile connections to the Clinton government to capitalize on their waning fame. Greenberg has piloted numerous political clients from parties to candidates straight into the ground. His modus operandi is usually a sharp shift to the corporate right and a nosedive in the polls. This tactic has led to the demise of the UK and Israeli Labor parties just to name two of his victims. "Our Brand is Crisis" portrays the usual suspects led by Carville and Rosner to groom their corporate fat cat for the top office in Bolivia in order to stop the indigenous movement led by Evo Morales. Today, Carville is in Afghanistan 'advising' a presidential candidate who is running against Hamid Karzai -- for a phenomenal fee -- as usual. In 2000, Greenberg and Gould reported over $100 million on their UK website, but promptly removed the figure after questions were raised. Thanks again, Tom, and please keep us updated on this nefarious activity.

[NinadelSol]

ZELAYA violated the Honduran Constitution and was dealt with according to HONDURAN laws - not US laws or International Treaties. This was a domestic problem that was handled internally. What left-wing gringos have to say about the matter is irrelevant since you are applying American laws to a foreign country. It was a Democratic Coup - a consequence for Zelaya's repeated illegal actions and crimes against Honduras, all sponsored by Latin American terrorist Chavez. The succession and new government are legal and are 100% supported by the Honduran Constitution. Now, Honduras can continue to be an important US ally in Central America, as it has been for years. Honduran soldiers even went to Iraq to fight alongside American soldiers a few years ago.

Chavez is taking over Latin America using old Castrist techniques and buying corrupt Presidents across the region and nobody takes notice! Zelaya is ousted in his pajamas to a neutral country and everyone is up in arms! This a ridiculous.

Obama vs. Clinton on Honduras? Obama rushed to take a poltically correct side and picked the wrong team to play on. He's an inexperienced President that surely knows how to enjoy "date night" and apply HOPE AND CHANGE to Wall Street, but he can't handle Iran, North Korea, and Honduras. He's lucky to have Clinton and other smart members in the State Department to guide him through these international entanglements. The Republican party has also behaved impressively. Honduras is one of Obama's biggest failures to date.

[partyofone]

NinadelSol , Are we seeing a rivalry between Hillary and her Clinton-era staffing at State Deparment and Obama's more qualified foreign relations teams of Biden, Jones, Gates, Power, Susan Rice and growing number of special envoys? Is her opposition really driven by analysis and regard for what is best for the region and our nation, or it is just a power play?

[wreckdiver]

"No", and "no".

That was easy.

[NinadelSol]

Yes. There is an obvious rivalry between the State Department and Obama's team. This was clearly shown when Hillary suggested the dialogue between Oscar Arias, Zelaya and Micheletti, while Obama did nothing but denounce a coup. Obama's team, which may be more qualified for affairs in other regions, is NOT specialized in modern Latin American politics. If they were, they'd realize that Chavez is America's worst enemy in Latin America and wouldn't have sided with him.

What happened in Honduras 18 days ago, was not a surprise. Zelaya, used to berate the "US imperialists" daily on his national TV channel. The State Department had already taken notice of his crazy behavior in Dec. when Hugo Lloren, the US Ambassador to Honduras, was given the cold shoulder by Zelaya, whom at the request of Chavez, didn't accept Llorens' credentials as scheduled to prove solidarity with Bolivia.

The new Honduran government is made up of the same people that were in government during the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush era. The past 4 years of Zelaya, most notably the last 2, came out of "left" field and was full of unfamiliar scary faces, all sponsored by Chavez. The State Department recognizes the people in this new government and the benefit of dealing with them.

Does the new Honduran government benefit the US? YES. That should be ALL that matters to America and Obama.

[pumaspaco]

Democratic coup?!? Talk about an oxymoron. Look, people defending the coup here are people who could not wait for the democratic process to get rid of Zelaya, and who stood to loose their historic influence in the country if "los de abajo" were allowed to move up in the world. International media has been kicked out of the country, politicians supporting the ousted rpesident have been assasinated in the last couple of days, people are dissapearing....way to be supportive of democracy, transparancy and the rule of law.

[NinadelSol]

Add "democratic coup" to your political dictionary because what happened in Honduras has no legal precedent or Webster definition. It was the legal removal of an unstable and corrupt President which was permitted under the Honduran Constitution. He's lucky he's still a citizen since he also violated Article 42 in the Honduran Constitution. "La calidad de ciudadano se PIERDE: Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República;" You can see videos of him inciting, promoting and supporting his own reelection on Youtube, if you conveniently ignored it while it was happening live.

What disappearances? You mean the corrupt government officials that have been fleeing the country to avoid prosecution? Media kicked out? Venezuelan Telesur's reporters traveling in a stolen government vehicle CHOSE to leave on Sunday.

Drinking the Chavez Kool Aid will never cure the "guerra" between the rich and poor in Honduras. You are not Robin Hood. Where was your rich-poor argument when Zelaya spent $80,000 last week on his Presidential credit card, which has since been cancelled, paying for expensive cowboy hats and luxury suites. Who's paying for his expenses this week? Chavez? His government made a cash withdrawal of $2 MILLIION DOLLARS from the Central Bank of Honduras two days before he was ousted! Where's the money? He's been charged with 18 illegal acts. Deal with it.

[adamb3v]

Hayden's also conveniently doesn't mention that not only did the Supreme Court explicitly rule against the referendum, but so did the Congress and the attorney general from his own party told him not to move forward. Zelaya not only willfully disregarded these orders, he led a mob to obtain forcibly obtain the ballots and illegally fired the head of the army. The military then simply followed the orders from the other two branches of government to remove the President from power for disobeying the law. Moreover, I wouldn't even call this a coup. The military promptly turned the power over to the next in line (from Zelaya's own party no less), and then said that elections would be held on schedule in less than 6 months. If you look at Zelaya closely, he was attempting to do what Chavez did and his blatant disregard for the law was evidence of that. He had also been working to shut down the free press in the country into addition to numerous other illegal acts.

[apduncan1]

Not to move forward?

What kind of a president would heed the orders of anybody? He is in charge, the people elected him.

The gorillas are working for the oligarchy ... that is all.

[apduncan1]

"He had also been working to shut down the free press in the country into addition to numerous other illegal acts."

So general ... put up or shut up.

[seasandcakes]

"adamb3v" is just another in a long line of users that I've notice have registered just this month, and are making nothing but one or a few pro-coup comments.