iPhone app iPad app Android phone app Android tablet app More

Featuring fresh takes and real-time analysis from HuffPost's signature lineup of contributors

The Church Should Stay Out of the Marriage Business

Posted: 03/04/11 04:12 PM ET

My friend, Bruce Reyes-Chow, wrote a post recently arguing that the government should get out of the marriage business. And I agree with him. Sort of. I think that the Church should get out of the marriage business. Basically, I think it's a sinful practice that clergypersons act as agents of the state when they form legal contracts by enacting marriages that the government recognizes. If the church quits performing legal marriages, then the government can get on with the business of equalizing marriage rights in our country for same sex relationships, and churches can perform sacred rites for whomever they want. In other words, let's build the wall of separation higher.

In 2008, after the passage of Proposition 8 in California, I blogged about my support for gay and lesbian persons and their right to be married. If there's one thing I've noticed in the time since, it's been how few people paid attention to the nuances of my position. So I thought I'd take the opportunity to write a bit more about it now.

It is very odd to me that in the U.S. clergy act as agents of the government at weddings. In my state, for instance, the bride and groom apply for the marriage license at the county court house, but they don't actually sign the license. Instead, it's signed by a member of the clergy and by two witnesses. And, of course, without the clergy signature, it is invalid.

When I talk to pastors and priests about this, almost all of them express extreme discomfort at this situation, for it actually requires the clergyperson to act as an extension of the state. And that conflicts with the theology held by many pastors, Calvinist and Arminian, Protestant and Catholic.

The reason for their discomfort, of course, is that in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, those in the roles of priests and prophets have used their position to challenge the governing bodies. But once you are an agent of that body -- which you are when you legally marry two people -- you lose some integrity in that prophetic role.

Further, the clergyperson is potentially at the beck and call of the government in this role.

And most problematic, from my perspective, is that the clergyperson, with the stroke of a pen, makes legal a contract that s/he has no ability or potential to end. And having gone through a divorce, I can tell you that extricating oneself from the legal contract that is marriage in our society is no mean feat. And the clergyman who married us was, understandably, not around to help unravel what he had helped establish.

I say all this to underscore what a strange thing it is in our culture that pastors, priests and rabbis, who would otherwise proudly proclaim their independence from the government, regularly act as agents of the government at wedding ceremonies.

Were we to separate legal and sacramental marriage, it would solve all sorts of problems, not the least of which is the growing discomfort that many of us have that legal marriage is available only to some responsible adults who are in monogamous relationships. To recapitulate in short what I've written in the past:

  • There is no "historic" institution of marriage; it has been a fluid concept for thousands of years, changing with time and across cultures
  • Our society has determined that monogamy is good, so we incentivize it in various ways
  • It's a plain reality that gay and lesbian couples are among us, and they're not going away. So let's afford them similar incentives toward monogamy by allowing them to enter the binding contract that we call "legal marriage"
  • This will not implicate what any congregation or denomination considers a "sacramental marriage"

Here's an analogy: As Christians, we don't agree with the production of pornography, for it generally degrades women and debases the beauty of human sexuality. But we don't continually protest against it, and we surely don't legislatively fight to have it banned. Why? Because we consider the First Amendment right to free speech to be more important. When we put it in the scales, we believe so strongly in the First Amendment that we are willing to live with pornography.

I say the same goes for same-sex marriage. Many Christians may not like it, but our desire for people to live chaste, monogamous lives should outweigh our distaste for homosexual sex (which, quite honestly, is what most Christians disagree with). In other words, I'm asking Christians more conservative than I on this issue to consider living with legal same sex-marriage in order to encourage monogamy among gay and lesbian persons.

And to reiterate, this will not implicate any church's position on whom they sacramentally marry, if clergy stop performing legal marriages.

So, what do you say pastors (and priests and rabbis)? Will you join me and refuse to legally marry people?

A version of this post was originally published on Tony's Theoblogy.

 

Follow Tony Jones on Twitter: www.twitter.com/@jonestony

 
 
  • Comments
  • 196
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3  Next ›  Last »  (3 total)
photo
thereisonlyoneparty
more amazing than you
11:50 AM on 03/07/2011
Except churches cannot marry anyone.  That pretty much destroys your whole argument, no?

The way marriage works now is that it is a contract (highly specific) that is applied to all people.  It is based upon state law.  No one besides the state government can marry anyone.  Do not believe me?  Try to get married in a church or synagogue without any government license.  A ceremony is not something that provides any weight when it comes to the law.  Two children could have a marriage ceremony, but that does not mean that the union is recognized by the state.

More what I find to be hilarious is that the dope who wrote this article is actually calling for the government to become an enforcer of morality more than it already is.

The government has no place in marriage other than to serve as the authority that can make ruling about the union contract.  It is not up to the state to determine that the only valid union is one that lasts forever or is only between two parties.  Religion can impose moral crap like that.  The government does base anything on morality (or at least it should not).
03:18 PM on 03/07/2011
Apparently you are unaware that the only reason the clergy CAN legally marry someone is because they applied to the state to be allowed that function. In all those actual christian nations (you know across the pond) you cannot get married in a church or by a member of the clergy. That has to be done at the town hall or registrar's office by a city/county employee. Later if you so choose you may have that union blessed by the church or your choice, but the legal contractis completely secular. The state enforces the civil marriage. What your religion views as moral or immoral is of no concern to the state.
photo
thereisonlyoneparty
more amazing than you
10:42 PM on 03/07/2011
It is the same in backward nations like America.

The ability to marry comes from the state.  No place else.  I am finishing up my application to confirm my citizenship for a European nation and I needed to provide my parents marriage certificate.  I had to go to the county registrar to get one.  I could not go to any religious group if a marriage existed.

Marriage/unions are  a legal concept first.  There is a huge moral component (mostly religious in nature; Jesus said only two partners for ever so that is how it is going to be, even if Mohammad was all cools with polygyny.)

The ability to create a legal union only exists in the government.  In other countries it is actually given power in religion (through supposedly non-binding arbitration hearings based on religious doctrine.)  That is not the case in the US.  Nor should it ever be.  The state makings rules regarding contracts and only it can enforce it.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Cymbol
Micro-bio? Hope it's not catchy!
04:06 PM on 03/07/2011
"In my state, for instance, the bride and groom apply for the marriage license at the county court house, but they don't actually sign the license. Instead, it's signed by a member of the clergy and by two witnesses. And, of course, without the clergy signature, it is invalid."

Maybe you missed that part.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
07:17 PM on 03/07/2011
However, it could be signed by a justice of the peace or a judge if the couple chooses a non-religious ceremony. The right to legally marry a couple still comes from the state.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
cyberfringe
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
11:02 AM on 03/07/2011
This is just great. I have been saying for a long time that we have all these problems with gay marriage in this country because we have conflated lawful civil union with the religious concept of marriage. Those who don't believe in separation of church and state have a hard time understanding the difference. I am so happy to see a member of the clergy stepping forward with this idea!
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
07:18 PM on 03/07/2011
Fanned and faved. It is indeed nice to see tis from a member of the clergy.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
KevinVT
Prof. of Russian & GL Studies in VT
10:00 AM on 03/07/2011
AMEN!
It's about time someone pointed out that marriage should be a civil/state institution, and it's the church that should be out of it, not the other way around.
07:28 AM on 03/07/2011
Why is government even in the marriage business? Without marriage, there would be no government. The family unit is the foundation of all society. From a strong family, you get strong families. From strong families, you get strong towns, to strong cities, to a strong nation. However, I do believe in benefits for a marriage between a man and a woman. It is within the states best interest to support those type marriages.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:32 PM on 03/07/2011
Well, have fun thinking it's a fact because that definition is going to change. A marriage is a contract between two consenting adults who are not closely related. Thanks for playing though.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ninetailedfox
banning people.....so childish
07:15 AM on 03/07/2011
During this meeting, the explanations of Paganism were soon silenced by police harassment, and the Pagans who remained after their pastor was removed for refusing to be silent were surrounded by Christians agreeing with their sheriff deputy. Not only was this deputy abusing his power, but he stated that he was “[a] Christian policeman…not going to tolerate Pagan religious practices (Barner - Barry 65) , ” which clearly demonstrates the abuse of the religious majority (and abuse of a position of power, in this case the police) overriding the Constitutional rights to practice religion of the minority.

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usnj&c=words&id=14346
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:34 PM on 03/07/2011
Sickening isn't it? And yet they whine about how "persecuted" they are. This needs to be taken to court and this deputy disciplined. Who in the hades does he think he is?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ninetailedfox
banning people.....so childish
07:14 AM on 03/07/2011
Churches should stay out of the governement and education too. I found an article about a fellow Pagan that was being ostracized for being the minority religion.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:39 PM on 03/07/2011
They persecute and marginalise us and have the NERVE to whine that they are being persecuted. That is a bald lie. And if there are some cases of persecution, what goes around comes around.
01:41 PM on 03/06/2011
Many clergy make a substantial part of their income performing marriages; thus, serving as an agent for the government is simply "good business." If their services no longer are required, barring an unanticipated burst in religiosity, many fewer couples will seek them out. This will impact not just the Clergy's immediate income but also may contribute to the shrinking of their flocks as the opportunities to engage potential prospects are diminished by fewer public ceremonies. How many Clergy are willing to risk this?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
01:00 PM on 03/06/2011
My previous comment aside, I don't understand your assertion that if churches quit performing marriages the government could get on with the business of equalizing marriages. That seems to be irrelevant, because churches DO NOT perform marriages. They perform weddings (marriage CEREMONIES) and maybe not distinguishing between the two words "wedding" and "marriage" is the source of much of the confusion. Churches (and temples, synagogues, mosques, etc.) have the constitutional right to wed anyone they choose. They can perform a polygamous wedding, or an incestuous one, or, not to be to glib, a marriage between a man and his pet iguana. The possibilities are endless and no authority will show up to stop it. They also have the constitutional right to deny this ceremony to anyone for whatever reason they see fit (no couple can marry in a Catholic church unless both are Catholic, for example). But the state alone recognizes whether religious weddings are anything more than an empty ceremony and will be deemed a legally binding MARRIAGE and everywhere in this country the sanctification of marriage by way of a religious wedding (marriage ceremony) is entirely OPTIONAL. Now add to this that there are countless churches and synagogues that gladly perform same-sex weddings that government often will not recognize. What are we to conclude from this? That contrary to your position, it's not religion PER SE that's the problem, but certain antigay Christians who very much want the state to uphold their antigay attitudes.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
PresReagan
Wake up America !
01:14 PM on 03/07/2011
JohnJames,
This is a well thought out comment. I agree with you on this. I think I am on the other side of the argument then you, I am against gay marriage. But, I have no issues with legal unions for same sex couples. What they are doing is wrong in the eyes of God, but they are still people and deserve to have similar civil rights as a straight couples. But, "marriage" as a term is a religious union and I feel strongly that it needs to stay that way. If you look and MOST religions, especially Christianity, homosexuality is a sin so it cannot be supported. So lets stop arguing about marriage and let religion have its sacred term and allow non-religious people to have civil-unions.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:36 PM on 03/07/2011
You have your discriminatory weddings and we will have our equal marriages. It does not need to stay religion. Call your unions whatever you wish...including marriage. The difference between marriage equality and your view is that we want to include whereas you wish to EXCLUDE.
06:06 PM on 03/07/2011
You're almost there. Let's let Christians have their definition of marriage, and let the non-religious have the definition of marriage. Two different definitions. Marriage differs from culture to culture.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
11:54 AM on 03/06/2011
I disagree with two of your premises both of which seem intent on to flattering Christians: 1. That discomfort with state entanglement is all that widespread among them. On the contrary, many conservative Protestants, at least, believe that God has a unique covenant with America and that it's therefore their duty to see that it be maintained, lest He be displeased with his most beloved country and abandon us to wrack and ruin. This manifests itself in many areas of political involvement besides gay rights, including the military and foreign policy (and, by the way, their efforts to maintain state sanctioned antigay bigotry in the name of God stretch back long before we gays could even dream of the possibility of legally recognized marriage). 2. That this is fundamentally about distaste with gay sex. No, that's a pretext (and not a few heterosexuals do the same things in bed). It's fundamentally about opposition to gay LOVE, particularly between men. Not only have we seen the same hatred, identical in all its fervid slanders of us, in other modern societies that make no pretext of religious justification for it, but also, in practice, antigay Christians make NO distinction whatsoever in their antigay prejudice between sexually active and celibate homosexuals. It's the patriarchal mentality that's so threatened by love between men and that mentality is rife among conservatives, Christian and non-Christian alike, but it doesn't fly politically, not here at least, to admit it.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:39 PM on 03/07/2011
Wish I could fan you again, but will definitely fave you! Well said.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Trickish Knave
Both sides suck, but neither will admit it.
11:49 AM on 03/06/2011
Author: "If there's one thing I've noticed in the time since, it's been how few people paid attention to the nuances of my position."

There is a reason for that. Prop 8 was passed by a majority of the people who voted for it- the majority of people in a state that has been brushed with the broad stroke of being full of hippies, progressives, tree huggers and gay sympathizers. Religious organizations do not own the legal system and did not decided that the gays cannot legally marry.

If gays want to have the legal right to be married then they need to win the hearts and minds of the majority- even as unfair as that sounds. Pushing your position down your opposition's throat will not make things happen any more than hope and change will.
12:57 PM on 03/06/2011
A majority isn't always constitutional either.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Eric Mann
Do you want to be on the opposite side of Progress
01:22 PM on 03/06/2011
So now the Constitutionally protected "pursuit oh happiness" for a particular group of people is up to a vote?
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
dancingstu
Christian, liberal lawyer
01:34 PM on 03/07/2011
I believe the "pursuit of happiness" is actually in the Declaration of independence.  I don't think there's any mention of the pursuit of happiness in the constitution.
photo
Mag7
Smarter than the Average Dog
11:24 AM on 03/06/2011
Churches need to get out of the political business, but I think if a couple want their ceremony in a church it's not my business, or yours or the governments. But marriage is also a civil right, when two people go to city hall and get a marriage license, and it's absolutely not the business of any church unless included by the couple. Gays pay their taxes and have the right to a marriage license, and churches pay no taxes and have no right to interfere.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Dave51CNY
11:18 AM on 03/06/2011
Yes, and while you're at it, why not get Charlie Sheen to be the Marriage and Family Living czar.
04:20 AM on 03/06/2011
LGBT couples should have the right to marry. My fiance and I are fighting for marriage equality. Help us by placing your vote! http://www.ultimateweddingcontest.com/entry/104050
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:45 PM on 03/07/2011
Fanned and faved! Done!
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
02:29 AM on 03/06/2011
The best solution is to leave things as they are but since so many have decided that we need a change for the sake of change, maybe we sould really change things. The government is not the Love Boat. No one including heterosexual couples deserves any advantages or benefits over single people simply because they have fallen in love. Level the playing field by taking away all those advantages and benefits that single people don't receive and marriage as a government institution will fade away......and true equality for all citizens will be the result.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
05:46 PM on 03/07/2011
Sorry you don't get to decide that.
01:41 AM on 03/06/2011
[[[The Church Should Stay Out of the Marriage Business]]]

It really should, inclusion of a 3rd wheel (even if it is "god") would only hurt the marriage. Marry based on mutual understanding of each other...not based on mutually shared interest in "god". The former is a deeper bond. The same way a marriage between two people who understand each other would probably outlast a marriage between two people who share a love for Apple Ipad