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Victor Stenger

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No Cause to Dispute Einstein

Posted: 09/27/11 09:48 AM ET

As someone who worked in neutrino physics for thirty years before retiring from research in 2000, I should be more excited than most by the report from CERN that neutrinos have been observed moving faster than light. And I am. The experiment looks very well done and the scientists involved are saying all the right things -- that their result is very preliminary and must be independently replicated before accepting it as scientific fact. If the observation is confirmed, it may be the most important discovery in science in the last 100 years.

However, a big fly in the ointment is the supernova in the Large Magellanic Cloud, which sits just outside our galaxy 168,000 light-years from Earth. It was first seen by the naked eye on February 24, 1987. Three hours before the visible light reached Earth, a handful of neutrinos were detected in three independent underground detectors. If the CERN result is correct, they should have arrived in 1982. So, if I were a wagering man, I would bet the effect will go away because of some systematic error no one has yet been able to think of.

Nevertheless, the enormous attention currently being given to this result affords us the opportunity to delve into to implications of faster-than-light travel should it ever be observed, which are profound. To begin, it needs to be made crystal clear that despite what has been reported in the media, superluminal motion in no way contradicts Einstein's theory of special relativity published in 1905. Einstein's equations fully allow for particles to travel faster than light -- provided they never travel slower. Physicists have speculated about such objects for years. They are called tachyons. Many searches have been conducted, with no significant signals until now.

Einstein showed that it was impossible to accelerate a particle moving less than the speed of light (in a vacuum) to the speed of light or higher. Similarly, a tachyon cannot be decelerated to or below the speed of light. Only massless particles, such as photons, travel at exactly the speed of light.

However, there is a problem with tachyons. They imply that cause and effect are interchangeable. Consider the famous duel between Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton on July 11, 1804. An observer moving by at less than the speed of light with respect to the participants would have seen the bullet from Burr's gun enter Hamilton's lower abdomen. However, another observer moving faster than light would have seen the bullet emerge from Hamilton's abdomen and enter Burr's gun. Did Burr kill Hamilton or did Hamilton kill Burr?

When you read, "Einstein proved that particles cannot go faster than the speed of light" you have to understand that this was not a consequence of the basic axioms of the theory of special relativity. To prove this he introduced an additional assumption now called the "principle of Einstein causality": cause must always precede effect. In that case, it then follows that we can't have superluminal motion.

Einstein causality certainly seems reasonable based on normal experience. Cause and effect are deeply embedded in our thinking, in both everyday life as well as virtually all of science. Causality is one of those commonsense notions, such as the world is flat, that hangs in there as a "self-evident truth" until some very bright person come along and says: "Maybe not."

A very bright Scottish philosopher named David Hume (d. 1776) said "Maybe not" when he pointed out over two hundred years ago that just because one event precedes another in our experience, we cannot conclude the first event necessarily was the cause of the second.

In modern chemistry and physics today, no distinction is made between cause and effect on the atomic and subatomic scales. Time is completely reversible. A carbon atom and oxygen molecule will combine to give carbon dioxide and energy. You can just as well have energy plus carbon dioxide give a carbon atom and oxygen molecule.

In 1948 Richard Feynman showed that, assuming our conventional direction of time an antielectron ("positron") going forward in time is indistinguishable from an electron going backward in time. Clearly when you reverse time, cause and effect are reversed. But it doesn't matter. The phenomena that are observed in submicroscopic chemistry and physics can be described either way.

Furthermore, many events on the quantum scale are described without even introducing cause and effect. For example, the theories that successfully describe atomic transitions and the decay of nuclei treat these phenomena as occurring spontaneously, without cause.

So, if confirmed, the reported result from CERN or any future observation of superluminal motion will not lead to the overthrow of Einstein's theory of relativity. Its significance will be to overthrow the distinction between cause and effect. At the worst, Einstein might be faulted for taking causality a little too seriously.

Finally, you might want to ponder what effect the demise of causality would have on the notion of God as the ultimate cause of all there is.

 
 
 
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09:02 PM on 10/04/2011
nonsense

the particle in question moved both faster than light and slower - contradicting Einstein.

I like the atheist push that says there is no causality so there is no God.- this fellow does love his atheist religion - a belief in something he can not prove, just as in all religions there is a belief in something you can not prove.
02:08 AM on 10/01/2011
The only problem with Victor's article is that Einstein did not say that nothing can travel faster than light. The correct statement is that "no real particle can travel faster than light". A tachyon has imaginary mass that goes to imaginary infinity when v=c and approaches zero as v=infinity.
12:56 PM on 09/29/2011
I find it shameful that all these Physicists don't have fuller understanding of special relativity. The news is full of Physicists being quoted as saying this conflicts with special relativity and therefor will likely be wrong. It shows that Einstein is still the smartest man atound.
12:45 PM on 09/29/2011
Thank you for pointing out that speed faster than light is NOT in conflict with special relativity.
Einstein said that there could be particles traveling faster than light. Nothing can accelerate or decelerate though the speed of light but faster is OK as long as it came into being whilst faster than light. Neutrinos due not change speed so Einstein would have been OK with this.
08:49 AM on 09/29/2011
superluminal? when were you born? 1200 BC?
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author.
03:08 PM on 10/04/2011
What's your point? Superluminal is a common term used all the tiime.
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ColleenHarper
Actions always have unintended consequences
04:45 AM on 09/29/2011
An interesting thought concerning SN 1987A (the supernova spotted in the Large Magellanic Cloud on 24 Feb 87) and the detection of a small shower of neutrinos three hours prior, in several neutrino detectors: while the chance is quite slim, the neutrinos detected hours before just might have been from an unrelated cause, and there really was a shower of neutrinos as far back as 1982 that Were related to SN 1987A, whose correlation to SN 1987A we can not establish.

Of course, I am NOT proposing this WAS the case. It is merely a thought experiment to consider and either examine or discard.
07:30 AM on 09/29/2011
Well, it's really unlikely. The neutrino burst was just the right intensity to be from a core-collapse SN at the distance of the Large Magellanic Cloud, for one thing; the background in those experiments were very low, so as far as I know they never saw anything comparable while they were operating. Finally, I think a few of the detections had some directional information (very crude), which was consistent with the direction of the LMC. So the case that the neutrinos were from the SN, while technically circumstantial, is very strong.
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ColleenHarper
Actions always have unintended consequences
08:30 AM on 09/29/2011
I fully agree. I was merely proposing a hypothetical, because it would be facetious to always equate coincidence with causality.

I was not aware that the detection of the shower of neutrinos associated with the burst of SN 1987A also could reflect some directionality back to the source of the observed detection. My major is not in physics/astrophysics (it was sociology.) I'm merely a well-read layman.
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jabailo
(Participant) Texeme.Construct()
01:46 AM on 09/29/2011
Einstein was an apologist for Newton.

We have to move on....Al and his adherents had their day in the sun, and places on University Chairs.

Time to turn over a new century.
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ColleenHarper
Actions always have unintended consequences
04:49 AM on 09/29/2011
Have you any recommendations of names for the new century who should "replace" Einstein?

Newton's theory is still applicable today for most cases.

Einstein's theory will still be applicable in 200 years for most cases.

I have no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, thank you. I have no need to show disrespect for Mr. Einstein when he saw so much further than any other physicist of his day.
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ConfuciusSay-
Aglets: their purpose is sinister.
05:32 PM on 09/29/2011
Rumors of the demise of Relativity are unfounded.
12:18 AM on 09/29/2011
I believe the answer will lie ultimately with the Aquila Earthquake that shook this location in 2009. The GPS'es might have only picked up a few centimeters of movement above ground, but miles below ground where the neutrino detector actually rests in a mineshaft, there might have been a much larger displacement. A small angular displacement of the mineshaft could translate to many meters of relative movement below ground.
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author.
12:21 PM on 09/30/2011
Here's what the report says:

"The distance between the target focal point and the OPERA reference frame was precisely
measured in 2010 following a dedicated geodesy campaign. The coordinates of the origin of the
OPERA reference frame were measured by establishing GPS benchmarks at the two sides of the ~10 km long Gran Sasso highway tunnel and by transporting their positions with a terrestrial
traverse down to the OPERA detector".
01:05 PM on 09/30/2011
Yes, I read all of that before, but I'm not really suggesting that the error lies locally right at the Gran Sasso measuring site. I'm saying that it's possible that with all of the crustal plates in between the source and destination are being compressed: it's possible that small angular displacements have accumulated which is much more likely to be seen at the lower depths than at the upper depths near the surface, due to the curvature of the Earth. Right at the Gran Sasso mine location, it may only reveal a few centimeters of movement, but all of the earth in between there and CERN in Switzerland might have been compressed by a few centimeters too, and all of these few centimeters here and there would begin to add up; the compression folds would be going downwards into the mantle, rather than upwards into the sky, so it wouldn't even be noticeable from the surface. I have a feeling that in the end, this result will end up revolutionizing the understanding of geology more than physics, especially underground crustal structures.
08:27 PM on 09/28/2011
I maybe way off base but I enjoy thinking about this. I have read that relativistic mass is the way physicists put a moving number into satisfying the anomaly of how e=mc2 takes into account kinetic energy. I prefer a relativistic speed of light. Seems strange that mass is measured differently depending on the frame of reference it is being observed. A missile fired from an airplane carries with it the original velocity of the airplane. Why doesn’t light? I still can imagine a space ship traveling at near the speed of light using a laser to hit objects in its path. And I would expect that an observer outside the spaceship would see the laser shoot out in front of the spaceship at a speed greater than the speed of light. From what I read not everyone has agreed with Albert. And for me there is still room to debate. We have studies saying that right after the big bang the speed of light was faster than it is now and we have measurements from CERN clocking particles going faster than the speed of light. This should open the door for even more debate.
It’s not like I am not disagreeing with global warming or evolution just that the speed of light is a universal constant and a speed limit. BTW I really appreciate you writing this article and having the patience to deal with crock pots like myself.
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ColleenHarper
Actions always have unintended consequences
04:57 AM on 09/29/2011
Disagreement with Mr. Einstein is welcome; it promotes the advancement of theory.

The difficulty will be showing how Mr. Einstein's theory in the non-quantum world might be wrong or insufficient. So far, in experiment after experiment, his theory has been substantially verified. It is when we find experimental results that reflect a possible problem with a theory that work can proceed in the development of a more accurate theory.

An interesting aside: we know that the General Theory of Relativity and the Theory of Quantum Dynamics are incompatible. Can it be that in the possible case of neutrons traveling faster than the speed of light, it is merely an example where quantum theory is trumping relativity? Physicists are clearly aware that since these two theories work very well in their own magisteria but that they are incompatible, there is a further underlying theory that will be a closer approximation to be developed sometime in the future.

Einstein did not say it all. He merely gave us a closer approximation than Newton.
07:34 AM on 09/29/2011
That's the thing -- in Einstein's theory, the speed of light is the same to all observers, so in your hypothetical space ship example, everyone -- the people on the ship, the people on the earth -- sees the beam moving the same speed, namely c, despite the motion of the source and the motion of the observer. In relativity, velocities don't simply add; the formulae are all arranged so as to keep the speed of light constant. The reason for this is that electromagnetism would make no sense if it were otherwise. Strange as it may seem, the theory is woven so deeply into well-understood physics that it's almost inconceivable that it's wrong -- it's passed every test for 100 years.
07:19 PM on 09/28/2011
Great disambiguation! Your discussion of Einsten has just opened up the Pandora's box of social media and showed readers how it takes over and constructs reality on the surface and then moves on to the next event, the next reputation.

Most people now think, thanks to social media coverage, that Einstein's theory is now finished, kaputt. That CERN are the winners and Einstein is the loser. And the velocity of information is increasing so fast that really nobody cares to offer a serious clarification- too much work, people will just intuitively "get it." That's what people said when Rome burned too.
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author.
12:06 PM on 09/29/2011
Please read my article again. Einstein's theory is not kaput.
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ConfuciusSay-
Aglets: their purpose is sinister.
12:32 AM on 09/30/2011
The OO is not suggesting that it is, merely indicating that there is buzz to that effect on the social networks.
04:11 PM on 09/28/2011
Dear Dr. Stenger,
Thank you for a very thought provoking article and for taking the time to respond to all your article's readers. You state and re-state: "The speed of light is constant by definition." For awhile I've wondered about whether C is really a "speed". Given a photon that leaves a star that is, say 1000 light years from an earth-bound observer, we can say that, from the photon's perspective, since it exists in a timeless state (t = 0), distance (d) would be: d = 1000 ly x t. In other words, distance = zero. So, again, from the photon's perspective, it has traveled no distance, no time has elapsed and therefore, it would follow that there's no real speed in the equation. Is this what "constant" means? Does it also imply that the concept of speed is only valid from a relativistic perspective? (Ugh! Sinking feeling that I just stated an obvious result from the Special Relativity equations...) But what does this say about our human perceptions of distance? Which of your books would you suggest, on this matter? Thanks.
07:37 AM on 09/29/2011
You're right that in the photon's rest frame, the distance is foreshortened to zero. It's the length contraction in the limit as v -> c. But for all other reference frames, speed is perfectly well-defined.
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author.
12:08 PM on 09/29/2011
And don't forget, since a photon can never be brought to rest, it has no rest frame.
11:23 AM on 09/28/2011
I have been writing about this for while. The problem isn't with e=mc2 it is thinking the speed of light is a constant. http://jetsrock.wordpress.com/
CERN will repeat its findings and at least one study in 1999 data did not support it being a universal constant.(see blog.) I wish this author or any other physicist just for once would look at these facts. This is a game changer.
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author.
11:54 AM on 09/28/2011
The speed of light is constant by definition .
05:17 PM on 09/28/2011
I understand it is a constant within one frame of reference. But it seems to me that there must be some kind of diferential when observing an event from outside the frame the event occurs. I was also wondering if energy equals mass times the speed of light squared wouldn’t an object traveling at a high rate of speed have more energy than one at a referential state of rest? By the speed of light increasing with the speed of the object it would seem to take that into effect. When I say increasing I mean that from the observers point of view wouldn't there be some kind of diference? The old experiment of having someone throwing a ball up and down on a train appears different depeding on the POV.
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edgraham
There is no magic
12:02 PM on 09/28/2011
I just read your blog. Interesting, but I feel that you don't understand the "Relativity" part of the special theory.
12:57 PM on 09/28/2011
Maybe. But I do understand that the speed of light is not a constant. Thanks
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author.
12:13 PM on 09/29/2011
What specifically don't I understand? Perhaps I should have made it clear that I am not presenting my own idiosyncratic view but that of well-established physics. I have taught relativity at every level including graduate courses during my 40 year academic career, so I know what is established. If this discovery is verified it will not change any known physics, just philosophical interpretations.
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lambdin1
What's this?
10:09 AM on 09/28/2011
Agreed. I think. I'm very ignorant of physics I understand a little but not enough to understand all this.
I liken this to a compass. It points to a magnetic north. Not to the true north. Except this is only more profound at greater distance. Say from here to the Magellanic Cloud. Also I gleemed the word mass from your paper. Neutinos are not influenced by magnetics, true? Light is, true? I'm not ready to throw Einstien out with the bath water. I therefore think before we glam on to this that much more dupilcation needs to be done and much more discussion.
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ColleenHarper
Actions always have unintended consequences
05:05 AM on 09/29/2011
I'm not sure light has been shown to be influenced by magnetism, but it is clearly established that light is influence by gravity, per the General Theory of Relativity.

While magnetism and gravity look somewhat similar, they are not in fact the same and different laws apply different results.
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lambdin1
What's this?
07:26 AM on 09/29/2011
Understood. Thanks. Mass creates gravity. And mass can influence light? But it can not influence nutrinos? Nutrinos pass through mass. It is not to say a nutrino does not have mass but we know of nothing to influence it? How am I doing so far?
09:34 PM on 09/27/2011
I did quick read at the paper on arxiv and i think the replication (with a different setup) could bring some light (jeje) to the problem if the setup was calibrated using light before and during the experiment.

On the wild wild ignorant speculation zone, would it be possible that the neutrinos given the uncertainty principle were "skipping" very tiny distances in the trajectory? those distances added might account for the difference.
ParadoxHarbinger
shoulder high in crap, water wings are flat
01:51 PM on 09/28/2011
more wild ignorant speculation here, but wouldn't the neutrinos be just as likely to skip backwards as forwards for a net zero effect? or maybe something tipped the scales towards them skipping forward more often than backwards?
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messy
artist, writer, adventurer
09:30 PM on 09/27/2011
As to the nutrinos from the 1987 supernova that should have arrived in 1982. Maybe they did, and nobody was looking for them...when did proper nutrino detectors first come into use?
10:18 AM on 09/28/2011
people have been looking for neutrinos since the 1950's
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ColleenHarper
Actions always have unintended consequences
05:10 AM on 09/29/2011
They quite easily could have, and without a way to correlate cause and effect of the origin of these detected neutrinos, there would have been no way to use them to predict the future occurrence of SN 1987A. But until confirmation of the FLT neutrino result, my comment is all pure speculation and therefore relatively useless.