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Victor Stenger

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Nuthin' to Explain

Posted: 04/22/2012 12:58 pm

In a recent book called A Universe From Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing, cosmologist Larry Krauss describes how our universe could have arisen naturally from a pre-existing structureless void he calls "nothing." He bases his argument on quantum physics, along with now well-established results from elementary particle physics and cosmology. In an afterword, atheist Richard Dawkins exults, "Even the last remaining trump card of the theologian, 'Why is there something rather than nothing?' shrivels up before your eyes as you read these pages."

Philosopher David Albert will have none of it. In a in the New York Times (David Albert, New York Times Book Reviews, March 25, 2012), he asks, "Where, for starters, are the laws of quantum mechanics themselves supposed to have come from?" Krauss admits he does not know, but suggests they may arise randomly, in which case some universe like ours would have arisen without a prescribed cause. In my 2006 book The Comprehensible Cosmos, I attempt to show that the laws of physics arise naturally from the symmetries of the void.

In any case, Albert asserts that it doesn't matter what the laws of physics are. They "have no bearing whatsoever on questions of where the elementary stuff came from, or of why the world should have consisted of the particular elementary stuff it does, as opposed to something else, or to nothing at all."

Krauss says that the reason there is something rather than nothing is that the quantum vacuum state is unstable. His theological and philosophical critics claim that what he discusses is not really "nothing." Krauss dismisses this criticism and says that the "nothing" of his critics is some "vague and ill-defined" and "intellectually bankrupt" notion of "nonbeing." Albert insists, "Krauss is dead wrong and his religious and philosophical critics are absolutely right."

In fact, Krauss's book is a good introduction to the latest in cosmology suitable for a layperson. If you, as Albert, do not find Krauss's philosophical or theological views congenial, you should read the book anyway because these views are typical among theoretical particle physicists and cosmologists. If you want to dispute them, you should at least know where they stand.

Clearly, no academic consensus exists on how to define "nothing." It may be impossible. To define "nothing" you have to give it some defining property, but, then, if it has a property it is not nothing!

Krauss shows that our universe could have arisen naturally without violating any known laws of physics. While this has been well known for a quarter century (see A Brief History of Time and Not By Design), Krauss brings the arguments up-to-date.

The "nothing" that Krauss mainly talks about throughout the book is, in fact, precisely definable. It should perhaps be better termed as a "void," which is what you get when you apply quantum theory to space-time itself. It's about as nothing as nothing can be. This void can be described mathematically. It has an explicit wave function. This void is the quantum gravity equivalent of the quantum vacuum in quantum field theory.

Krauss also describes how cosmology now strongly suggests that a "multiverse" exists in which our universe is just one member. So, the real issue is not where our particular universe came from but where the multiverse came from. This question has an easy answer: the multiverse is eternal. So, since it always was, it didn't have to come from anything.

Albert is not satisfied that Krauss has answered the fundamental question: Why there is something rather than nothing, that is, being rather than nonbeing? Again, there is a simple retort: Why should nothing, no matter how defined, be the default state of existence rather than something? And, to bring religion into the picture, one could ask: Why is there God rather than nothing? Once theologians assert that there is a God (as opposed to nothing), they can't turn around and ask a cosmologist why there is a universe (as opposed to nothing). They claim God is a necessary entity. But then, why can't a godless multiverse be a necessary entity?

Now, one might still ask why there is something rather than nothing, where nothing means nonbeing including the absence of God. Here at least we can provide a suggestion based on our knowledge of the quantum void. As Nobel laureate Frank Wilczek put it in a Scientific American article back in 1980 (Frank Wilczek, "The Cosmic Asymmetry Between Matter and Antimatter," Scientific American 243, no. 6 (1980): 82-90), which Krauss quotes, "Nothing is unstable."

The issues Albert raises are legitimate, but they can be addressed within existing physics and philosophical knowledge.

 
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04:27 PM on 04/30/2012
"Nothing" is just a placeholder for the opposite of "something". It is a non-entity with no attributes. Anything else is just "something" (any entity with zero or more attributes). Since there are an infinite number of possible entities with varying numbers attributes, then any "something" is infinitely more probable than the single "nothing". Any other definition of "nothing" is a description of something, because it must be an entity of some kind, so it can be described. I think that nothingness never existed or never non-existed.

It makes less sense that God existed, in the beginning, than a cup of coffee existed in the beginning. God would be much more complex than a cup of coffee. It makes more sense to believe in the cup of coffee theory than in the God theory.

"In the beginning" makes no sense either. Something always existed.
01:04 AM on 04/27/2012
That is the answer : ‘Natural number can not be used for quantum phenomena = Geocentric Theory’

By the way ,is a chinese answer ,I’m certainly in the ‘the chinese room’
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SKSagar
Superconsciousness switched on the bigbang
02:12 PM on 04/26/2012
For how long did `NOTHING` last before it became `SOMETHING`?
Where was this `NOTHING` located ?
Was creation and annihilation , creation and annihilation, going on all the time in that `NOTHING` while it was `NOTHING` ?
Was this `NOTHING` always having the potential to create `SOMETHING`?
Are these questions answerable by quantum physics without involving consciousness?
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BluePhantom2
The Blacksmith & the Artist reflected in their art
06:13 PM on 04/25/2012
I love this discussion. That the universe or better yet (In my opinion) the multiverse suddenly appeared or exploded into somethingness (My new word of the week) from nothing or the void I find fasinating. "A brief history of time" helped me get my head around some of this, but why can't God be the spark of creation? And if there is no God to ignite the spark then what did? As it would have to be something wouldn't it, or is spontaneous somethingness (There's that word again) mathmatically possible? And the "It's been here forever" arguement seems more like a copout to the anti-God crowd to me than an answer. Because if it's been in existence forever, where exactly did forever come from? Did it spring forth from pre-foreverness or what? Not argueing for or against God all but creation or the beginning I feel had to happen. And if it didn't and we are in fact just a long line of random events with no reason to exist except to procreate why am I here writing this when I should be out procreating?
02:30 AM on 04/29/2012
In that case what was the spark for God? And if God has been around forever, isn't that just a copout to the God crowd? ;-)
06:56 PM on 04/24/2012
Perhaps in the future there will be three schools of physics, "quantum" the study of the very small, "the standard model" the study of our perceived reality and "macro cosmology" the study of the exceedingly large. Because the universe is so vast, so absolutely humongous, it's entirely possible that we don't have the proper tools available to us, right now, for understanding how something that massive works. It's plausible to say our understanding of physical reality becomes so erroneously complicated, once we cross the threshold of the known Universe, that in the Exo-Universe the speed of light or gravity may not follow the same laws of physics that we have here in our little bubble. Larry Krauss's "nothing" may be an energy, a wave or a particle, borrowed from the exo-universe, that's not readily detectable by any known experiment. It may be entirely possible that the exo-universe is filled with matter that does not represent or is unlike anything we have ever encountered and that our universe is the result of that matter changing or taking a different form. Perhaps it was the chance collision of two exo-universe particles that took billions of years to find each other and collide resulting in the creation of our universe. Who knows. But to say that since we don't understand the nature of the exo-universe then that is reason for the existence of god, is completely ludicrous.
05:59 PM on 04/24/2012
"They claim God is a necessary entity. But then, why can't a godless multiverse be a necessary entity?"

A necessary multiverse implies the fulfilling of some purpose which implies God.
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DakkonA
www.DisentangledReality.com
12:12 PM on 04/26/2012
It really doesn't.
12:49 PM on 04/24/2012
Everything is everywhere.
Nothing is nowhere.(shuffles back to bong)
12:37 PM on 04/24/2012
It occurs to me that if someone sets out to describe and characterize "a pre-existing structureless void he calls nothing," that is by definition NOT what the rest of us mean by nothing.

If Larry Kraus postulates that there was a pre-existing "something" that he can describe, that's not "nothing." If it's a "quantum void" that comes with features, it's not "nothing".

Kraus's physics may still be correct, but I see why critics are not persuaded.

If Kraus can't explain where the "quantum void" comes from, then we're exactly where we started.
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DrTachyon
Baby, please! I am not from Havana.
05:08 PM on 04/24/2012
But why would one have to explain where "nothing" came from?
03:45 AM on 04/25/2012
Clearly one does not need to explain where "nothing" came from.

But Larry Kraus is cheating here. He's talking about a "nothing" that is very clearly SOMETHING.

Kraus is talking about a "nothing" that has features and characteristics and rules. That's not "nothing." That's SOMETHING.

Kraus is simply playing a semantic game.
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WI Patriot
Defending the Constitution.
02:06 AM on 04/24/2012
Gravity is something, that some feel is "nothing"
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chevyliddle
what's a micro-bayou?
08:04 AM on 04/26/2012
Until you jump from an airplane and realize that you forgot the chute....gravity is no longer "nothing".
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12:24 AM on 04/24/2012
What I'd like to know, is why they're still having this debate. Since its been made abundantly clear that both sides already have their minds adamantly set before even considering the question. It's counterproductive.
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DakkonA
www.DisentangledReality.com
10:42 AM on 04/24/2012
Because the side with evidence is probably the right one, and the one with old books is probably not but won't shut up about it.
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10:26 PM on 04/24/2012
You miss understand who the two groups that I'm referring to are. Not religion vs science, but rather the theistic absolutists (namely biblical literalists) vs atheists/anti-theists. Both of those groups have already made up their minds, closed their ears. I would like both of those groups to be quiet and let faith be faith and science be science. As opposed to everyone must believe or disbelieve in an all powerful creator. Since spirituality is subjective to the individual.

Science isn't a belief system, it doesn't deal with the spiritual, nor does it require that we believe in it. Science is the pursuit of the knowledge and the application of such through observation of the natural and reasoning in-order-to advance our understanding. Biblical leaders (who feel that science threatens their authority) would love to frame it as a belief/faith system, equating science with liberal atheism bent on destroying all religion (which it isn't), so that they can unify as many religious people as possible in their quest to destroy science and by that regain their power over the people.

If we hold to that view of science, then the religious leaders have three things working for their cause; 1) their consistancy in their beliefs when compared to the constant evolution of scientific theory (the latter being more healthy and natural). 2) the majority of people believe in one religion or another, they simply have to find a way to avoid using genesis ch1 and use the term God as some type
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DakkonA
www.DisentangledReality.com
11:07 PM on 04/24/2012
Atheism isn't a belief system either. If you don't hold belief X, you are by definition an atheist.

By the way, you responded to a post about scientific research and thought about the nature of the universe, and the arguments religion tries to bring up against it. The debate you presumably were referring to is not atheist vs. theist, it's scientific vs. theistic explanations of existence. It just so happens that science keeps building up evidence that the universe does not require an external being to exist.
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
06:06 PM on 04/23/2012
There are plenty of arguments against the Science being put forth by Krauss and other Scientists, but the difference is that they are arguments only, if you want to be taken seriously do the math, do the WORK that backs it up.

Existence always exists, simply different in different forms, but only regresses back to an eternal primary *non-conscious* state form which all other forms of existence are possible, so if a god like being it is probably a *product* of the universe just as we are, and if god like intelligence does exist in non-material form, there's probably more than one, probably cares about us as we care about ants, or even less so.

personally, I am just going to become Akira and figure all this out for you and return when I know more, I'll decide then whether I need any worshipping, depends how I'm feeling that day.
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etherialecho
Beware of absolutes.
10:23 PM on 04/23/2012
There is more to Nothingness than meets the eye.
As you say, a different form, a different state or to me - a phase (null) in the space/time flow.
Most certainly follow the numbers.
Matter plus anti-matter equals nothing.
Simple and (probably) accurate. Feel free to check my math:
1 + (-1) = 0.
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
10:11 AM on 04/24/2012
Yes, we are in agreement, and nothingness is not *actual*, it is conceptually "nothing", but existence is still present.

Remember, Matter plus Anti-matter doesn't equal "nothing" or "non-existence"

Matter plus Anti-matter = Energy. E=mc^2 (Energy is not "nothing")
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Cole 33
Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
04:54 PM on 04/23/2012
I have found how we describe things is a central problem. Here's how I've tried to make things gel, to a point.

something = existence
nothingness = non-existence OF existence.

Why is there something (existence), rather than nothing (non-existence of existence)?

The non-existence *of* existence itself is not a possible state. The only possibility IS existence and existence in greater complexity, matter, light, physics, life.

So before the Big Bang, there was simply a great void yet that void was primary state of existence, there was no time or space (an area you can be mobile in), there was only an eternal base level state of existence from which all possible outcomes derive, and there is no previous state to regress to.

Why does anything exist at all? because existence IS the only possible state, and there can be no possibility of non-existence of existence itself.

God is a convenient answer, but proposing that God is the answer doesn't actually answer anything, it actually opens up even more questions, and when people wanted answers to all the questions that popped up when God was introduced, they needed to create Religion to answer those questions, and when those questions couldn't get answered, the best answer was the gallows for those people who questioned.
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jjns0502
Husband. Father. Veteran.
02:20 PM on 04/24/2012
I really like your thoughts on this.
02:42 PM on 04/26/2012
Very similar to the "here is a hand" argument.
cosmicdart
paragon of paradigms
04:50 PM on 04/23/2012
The Multi-verse conspires to feel. Pleasure? Pain? Love? Hate?....>> Feelings have no material existence, and yet they exist as Nothing from Something. How strange this? Why don't we call a hug the Equation of Everything? God is Feeling. God is Nothing from Something. To Be is much stronger than to Know.
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Akla
Leave No Trace, Just a Good Impression
04:20 PM on 04/23/2012
Arguing over the unknowable gets us nowhere. How do either of these arguments lead to understanding more about how we began--they do not. The two sides, or more, only create their theories which, in the end, or shall I say the beginning, are not testable, so they are no better than religion. We (our known universe) are but a single cell organism in a sea of space (the infinite universe). Do the "laws of physics" hold everywhere else? We will never know. We are limited by our math and perception and our ability to travel beyond what we can see through our machines. It is wondrous. It is what it is. But, like the will of god, it is unknowable an incomprehensible. Still, man continues to use his lack of knowledge to kill and destroy other humans because they do not share the same belief systems. Round and round. Something from nothing. You just gotta believe.
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CanadianSkeptic
Amazingly, thinking can solve most problems
05:55 PM on 04/23/2012
Actually the theories about the creation of our universe are based on scientific principles that have been or can be tested. I do believe it is a question science will ultimately have a pretty good answer for.
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grappler1987
Heaven is a gift, not a reward
01:27 AM on 04/25/2012
Are multiverse hypotheses testable? I wasn't aware of that.
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03:02 PM on 04/23/2012
And you really find the wave function of the quantum gravity void less godlike than En Sof who contracted into himself, away from a point within himself, to make room for the cosmos?

Maybe Dawkins doesn't know his arcana well enough. Trump cards? What trump cards?
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DakkonA
www.DisentangledReality.com
10:44 AM on 04/24/2012
a "god" is a being. An intelligent entity. If the pre-existing thing is not some intelligent entity with wants and desires, it is not a god.
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02:34 PM on 04/24/2012
Here are two reasons why theology invented and developed the historical-critical method:

(1) if it was so easy to attach attributes to god as you are trying to make it be, then it would be positively impossible to make any sense whatsoever out of sacred texts. What you are doing is simply expressing a certain reading that you've gotten used to, probably because it enables you to insist on the validity of your arguments. But sacred texts aren't written with semantics and dictionaries in the back of the mind of the author.

(2) If everybody had to agree with what I echoed about En Sof, then churches and mosques and synagogues would probably be rather empty.

btw how about the various bumps and shapes and discontinuities of that wave function. Don't they express properties of probabilities of future evolution paths of the universe? And how are those NOT interpretable as wants and desires?

There's just no way you could deny that talk about that wave function is one way of doing what has been called 'reading the mind of god' in other times. We no longer call it thus, but so what?

Of course the mystical speculations are speculations only. But who has made contact between the physics that goes into that quantum void before the big bang and our everyday world? It's the same problem, in a different guise. It's just as risky now than it was in the middle ages to speculate about absolute origins.