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Why Science and Religion Are Incompatible (Part 2)

Posted: 06/30/11 10:22 AM ET

In my previous blog I claimed that science and religion are fundamentally incompatible. To reiterate, the reason I gave was their differing epistemologies. Science relies only on what we observe with our senses, while religion claims an additional inner sense that reveals another world beyond.

Now let me take a look at some specific examples where these contrasting notions on the sources of knowledge lead to incompatibilities in their comprehension of the nature of reality.

1. The Transcendent

All religions, even Buddhism, teach that a reality exists that goes beyond -- transcends -- the world that presents itself to our senses and scientific instruments. While science is willing to consider any evidence that comes along, so far we have no empirical anomaly that requires us to introduce supernatural causes into our models.

In this regard, it is often claimed that science has nothing to say about the supernatural. But this is wrong. If the supernatural exists and has effects on the sensory world, then those effects would be observable and subject to scientific study. A God that plays such an important role in the universe and in human lives as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God should have been detected by now. The fact that he hasn't forces us to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that a God with those attributes does not exist.

Let me take a moment to show why I can make such a claim. Even the most pious believer has to admit that there is no scientific evidence for God. If there were, it would be in the textbooks along with the evidence for neutrinos and DNA. But then, the believer will say, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

While this may be true in general, it is not true when the evidence that is absent is evidence that should be there. The absence of evidence for elephants in Central Park (droppings, crushed bushes) can be taken as a good sign that there are none.

  • If the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God exists we should see evidence that he answers prayers. We do not.
  • If he reveals truths by extrasensory means, we should be able to verify those truths. We do not.
  • If God or the supernatural is glimpsed in religious experiences, we should be able to confirm it. We do not.

In short, the world looks just like it should look if there is no God with these attributes. True that this does not rule out other gods, such a deist god that does not act in the universe. But we can rule out the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God to a high degree of probability (see God: The Failed Hypothesis).

2. The Origin of the Universe

Fundamental to most religions is the notion of divine creation. At one time it seemed impossible that the universe could have come into existence naturally. Christians saw the success of the big bang model as a further confirmation of the biblical creation story. At least it seemed to prove that the universe had a beginning and it followed, by their reasoning, that the cause of that beginning could only be a personal Creator God.

Modern cosmology has considerably dampened this hope. It has shown that the big bang need not have been the beginning of space and time and that the universe could be eternal. At least, theological claims that an eternal universe is mathematically impossible can be proven false. It now seems possible or even likely that our universe is just one of an unlimited number of other universes.

Several plausible scenarios for the natural origin of our universe have been published by reputable scholars. While we cannot say exactly how our universe came about, these scenarios, which are completely worked out mathematically and consistent with all existing knowledge, at least prove that a divine creation is not required.

3. Fine-Tuning

Many theologians and others have claimed that the parameters of physics are so delicately balanced that any slight changes in their values and life would not have been possible. Therefore they conclude that a creator must have fine-tuned these parameters so that we, and our form of life, would evolve.

This claim can be refuted on several fronts. The most popular explanation among most physicists and cosmologists is that many universes exist and we just happen to live in the one suited for us.

However, even if only our universe exists, adequate explanations within existing knowledge can be found for the values of the most crucial parameters. Others can be shown to have ranges that make some form of life probable (see The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning).

4. The Argument from Design

For centuries theologians have argued that the observed order we see around us is evidence for divine design in the universe. However, the universe does not look at all as if it were designed by a perfect, all-powerful, benevolent God. It is too imperfect, too filled with evil and suffering. And, as time has gone by, science has provided plausible explanations for the observed order.

Proponents of intelligent design creationism argue that complex structures require an architect and builder, and that natural processes cannot generate increasing complexity. They are wrong. The generation of complex systems from simpler systems can be seen in many physical situations, such as the phase transitions in which water goes naturally from gas to liquid to solid in the absence of external energy. In the physical and biological worlds, simplicity begets complexity.

The reason for much of the mistrust of science is the fundamental incompatibility of science and religion and the religious know that. At least evangelicals are honest about it. They recognize science as the enemy. Liberal and moderate believers, on the other hand, are fooling themselves if they think that can be both religious and scientific without being schizophrenic.

 
 
 
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02:43 PM on 07/21/2011
"If the supernatural exists and has effects on the sensory world, then those effects would be observable and subject to scientific study....God should have been detected by now. The fact that he hasn't forces us to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that a God with those attributes does not exist."

The premise of your argument is a paradox. When God does anything supernatural and it effects our sensory world, the first thing skeptics do is explain it away to a natural phenomenon or fraud. If God did in fact cause an earthquake, would you not say that it is only natural seismic activity due to the shifting of the plates? If God really did send his spirit into a virgin to conceive a child, would you not just call her a harlot who had to make up a story to keep her husband from stoning her? No matter what God does, you can always just break it down to mechanics, the "how it happened" and explain God away. So if he does exist, you'd never know anyways because you can always explain Him away.
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LuxorLava
you spend entirely too much time here
05:13 AM on 07/03/2011
You who do not understand a religious world/spiritual view cannot because you can only think of worldly things & are holding a deity under the scrutiny of human wisdom. Even for non-believers I think they would see the folly of their methods. How would a human expect to understand a god in human terms alone? Wouldn't it require something beyond human understanding? This is that seemingly obscure concept of "faith" which in reality is simple. For those who believe in their spiritual beings, the veil lifts from the eyes. In Christianity, it is the grace of God that saves & the wisdom that transforms seeming folly into the ultimate & highest discernment.

You are free to choose on which wisdom to base your beliefs. But as a former non believer, I have learned in order to understand the world you apply the scientific method and since religion is a different subject, it should be handled as such. Understanding requires that you apply religious methods... meditation, praying, reading, praying, fellowship, praying & charity, etc... Your mind & your soul will awaken. Surely the physiological positive effects of these methods are beneficial in themselves for all humans to at least try to understand their Spiritual self at least once in their lives. Not doing this puts you scientifically at a Type II error & a greater risk occurs with not attempting to seek a Spiritual self. What harm would come but being a more centered & self-aware being?
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author. New book: God and t
04:21 PM on 07/05/2011
You don't have to understand God to see evidence for him.
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LuxorLava
you spend entirely too much time here
04:57 AM on 07/03/2011
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written; 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.'...Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. ...For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. ...God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things and the things that are not- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him." 1 Corinthians 1:18-28
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LuxorLava
you spend entirely too much time here
05:37 AM on 07/03/2011
Basically tells you straight, You cannot get to God through worldly wisdom, that is, through human wisdom. It requires having faith & being a faithful person. To the wise of the world that seems foolish. To the believers, attempting to "test & detect" God is even more foolish.
11:08 PM on 07/01/2011
Oh my, I bet that last line struck a nerve with some of our more notable religious scientists(Francis Collins, Kenneth Miller). But I don't think it will change any minds any time soon. Dr. Stenger you are still my favorite atheist rights activist.
11:41 AM on 07/01/2011
Victor Stenger presumes that the fundamental difference between science and religion exists because 'faith' as understood by history and tradition has proved unable to lead reason to any demonstrable insight into either the human condition or God. At least not one subject to the scrutiny that science understands as the means to test truth claims.

Even the Pope agrees and issued a statement yesterday via the catholic news service saying: "subjecting God and his truth to scientific scrutiny represents an incorrect and despotic use of human reason."

Any truth claims, material or spiritual, that is not subject to testable scrutiny is a incorrect and despotic abuse of human reason. And it appears as if what for all of history has been an insurmountable divide has found a resolution, But I doubt either Mr. Stenger or the Pope will like it? But like it or not:

The first wholly new interpretation of the moral teaching of Christ for two thousand years is spreading on the web. And against the entire stream of history, it is predicated upon an act of faith, leading to a precise, predefined and direct demonstration of the omnipotent divine will. " correcting human nature by a change in natural law, altering biology, consciousness and human ethical perception beyond all natural evolutionary boundaries." In short that means that a literal PROOF of God has become possible.

To test or not to test, that is the question? http://soulgineering.com/2011/05/22/the-final-freedoms/
11:38 AM on 07/01/2011
Fine tuning? Why doesn't the big bang happen again and wipe us all out? No reproduced event in several billions years! Why doesn't evolution suddenly sprout novel life from amino acid pools? Not easily reproduced in billions of years. If the events are improbable, therefore irreproducible, they are not evidence based science. They are mythos - oh you know, it happened once, might happen again, it seems to fit the models we have, but no we can't experimentally verify by recreating it - trust me, hae faith my friendly non-scientist. The Design argument restates the very real problem of evil. Consider the evolutionary idea that humans are more adapted than other primates. Actually, viruses are the most adaptive survivors. Evolution favors them, not humans or primates. Consciousness, an empirical fact, is irrelevant to reproduction based selection. It provides no benefit over being a simple virus. Evolution favors genocide, by genocide, one group of genes survives and another group of genes is extinguished. Human application of the evolutionary models are generally considered evil. The problem of evil is very much evolutionary. Unless of course, you point out that the idea of evil is itself problematic. Then the design is being justified - by theologians or evolutionists - but justified. hariaum
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10:05 PM on 07/01/2011
The problem of evil is a term that applies to religious apologetics, also known as theodicy. The question is; if an all-good and all-loving god created everything, then where did evil come from?

Science has no need to address that question, because the argument is meaningless if you don't already accept the existence of an all-good all-loving god that created everything. Evolution has no trouble explaining why bad things happen, why some people harm others, because there is no intent within evolution, it is just blind processes. There is no excuses to make for it, as there is with theodicy.

As for your questions about the big bang and biogenesis, there is speculation that both actually have happened multiple times. Not that it would change anything if we were positive it had only happened once, because no matter how many times these processes have happened, that in no way supports any supernatural claims, because that would be nothing more than a god of the gaps argument.
11:16 AM on 07/02/2011
Not really. the problem of evil is human. If you believe the world works a certain way, you make your decisions on that understanding. The consequence of poorly understood evolutionary thoery - see Spencer, the angilcans, the American western march, nazis - is eugenics and genocide. If that consequence doesn't give you pause, you might wonder why. If "science" does not have a policy role and is mere back room talk it is irrelevant and has nothing more to offer. If it is to be used, its defenders have moral culpability - as any ideology. The intent of science is to define order assuming randomness. Sepculation is mythos. I am not against science. I was just pointing out that this was a mythological essay as your comment on speculation confirms. hariaum
03:03 PM on 07/21/2011
Where did evil come from? If you made a cup and it had freewill to either hold water or let it leak out, a leaking cup would be a bad cup. It would be an evil cup. "Evil" is going against your purpose, but this is just a basic Aristotelian argument. We knew what evil was way before Christ, Christians, and apologetics.

"Speculation" - interesting word choice, there's also speculation that Christ really did exist, did some cool things while he was about, and his body is no where on Earth. Can we call it a tie then?
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author. New book: God and t
04:20 PM on 07/05/2011
Think of it this way. The big bang was like rolling down a mountain. We are now at the bottom of a valley. But other mountains exist for other universes to roll down into.

Similarly the conditions on Earth are different now then they were when life formed.
05:13 PM on 07/05/2011
I do not disagree with the belief that the big bang happened. But I recognize that the foundation of an empirical evaluation is in reproduction. If there are no more mountains, then the hypothesis that there was a mountain, a vast potential enegy that was unmanifest for example, is as meaningful as the idea that from the unmanifest Brahman, the manifest Brahman is experienced to have been formed. Naturally, once such a metaphysical mythology is formed, we can draw conclusions. If I believe the universe is a random event, and rules are random events, then I can create a random ideology that is as valid as a non-random ideology (irrationality is as "good" as rationality). If I believe the universe is consciousness / being with knowable rules, then I can argue one who knows those rules understands the non-randomness of the world as it is rather than a random concoction of what it might be. If I believe the universe is run by an egocentric monster that calls himself god, I can choose to oppose that non-random entity and then impose rules...But again, when you state 'the Big Bang occurred though we can't see it' and state 'God has to be seen to be believed in,' then it is reasonable to say, the Big band has to be seen to be believed in, and likewise 9 dimensional space, dark matter, cartesian coordinate systems, etc. hariaum
11:33 AM on 07/01/2011
Part 1: This article is scientific mythology. The transcendent: What is supernatural. The evidence, for example, of dark matter or 9 dimensional space is based on mathematical models - the supernatural. There is no natural "point" - how many points can dance on the head of a needle? There is no such thing as a perfect "natural" triangle, no "natural" Cartesian coordinate system.... So a mathematical mythology is a transcendental approach to understanding the universe. Pythaogoras and many mathematicians understood this, moderns choose to ignore it. Truth revealed by extrasensory means: A is a subset of B. There fore A has the properties of B but B has elements that have properties unique from A. No sensory evidence. Just Truth. Of course many traditions, Hinduism particularly, says the Being Tat is is Brahman and that is Truth. To argue Truth does not exist becomes non-sensical. Eternal time. If time is a dimension of this space. Then when this universe banged, time banged with it. To speak of time before time is physicists playing mythology. Aside from mathematical models, where's the sensory evidence?
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Miriam Breslauer
07:18 PM on 06/30/2011
Religion is a social contract between groups of people on how they commonly perceive life, history, and community. For me it is separate from science that measures and more exactly examines the world around us.

Science is almost useless for every day comforting of a person when Entropy has stomped on their life. Religion might not have any exact or precise answers, but its inexactness is precisely why it can give a person guidance when they are stuck.

As an Engineer, science is an important tool in every day work. However, religion helps when my equipment breaks once again, I have a tight deadline, and I am frustrated. Religion helps me believe that I will eventually overcome these simple challenges to achieve my goal.
11:13 PM on 07/01/2011
Yeah, but the question at hand here is, does god exist. And all facts point to a resounding NO.
03:28 PM on 06/30/2011
"If the supernatural exists and has effects on the sensory world, then those effects would be observable and subject to scientific study."

Exactly my thoughts - the supernatural can only exist if it doesn't. Otherwise, it would soon be incorporated among our physical idea of the world and thus cease to be supernatural.

"It now seems possible or even likely that our universe is just one of an unlimited number of other universes."

I disagree. I believe that every physical presence must always be of a limited number (I disagree until someone explains to me how the opposite would be possible).
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01:59 AM on 07/01/2011
Picture the biggest number you can imagine, then add a shipping and handling fee. That's what infinity is like.
03:26 PM on 07/21/2011
I hope you'll let me borrow this line, its very clever! That said, "possible", "likely" are not very concrete words, the fact is, any intro logic class will show you that the scientific method, while very great for practical purposes, is no better at theory then theology or philosophy, and cannot create valid arguments to prove much of anything. I'm serious, look into it.
02:46 PM on 06/30/2011
Good article shame the author fails to prove his point. If science relies only on what we observe with our senses then much of what we call science is not science. Anyone observed the Higgs Boson or dark matter recently? So science does not depend solely on our senses it goes beyond that and in to the releam of belief, scientists build images (theories/hypotheses) and believe in them until proven wrong. Not unlike the concept of faith in a god which is a belief which could be proven wrong.

As the authors says: f the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God exists we should see evidence that he answers prayers. We do not. And yet people continue to believe in the power of prayer and some scientific studies have shown that prayer does have an impact. It may not result in a big lottery win but there have been some studies that appear to show a weak yet real causal link around pain relief see http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/can-prayer-heal. So there is some evidence when we know what to look for.

At the end of the day even scientists are susceptible to interpreting the things that they can observe with their senses in accordance with their own personal agendas in exactly the same way as creationists can read the Bible to support their own positions.
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02:12 AM on 07/01/2011
You observed what the Higgs Boson represents if you've ever witnessed mass of any object....because that is what the Higgs Boson theoretically explains.

You have observed dark energy if you have ever observed a picture of a galaxy. Dark energy is the added variable to our models to keep galaxies from flying apart. Once again, you have definitely seen the observation involved with dark energy, even if dark energy hasn't been flushed out.

Your link is broken, but either way, pain relief is very susceptible to the placebo effect. I would hope you could demonstrate the power of prayer, if it were real, to be significantly more powerful than a sugar pill, but that is unfortunately what these kinds of positive study results usually come down to.
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10:08 PM on 07/01/2011
That should have been "dark matter", not dark energy...
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gutenmorgen
a.k.a. poopdeck
02:42 PM on 06/30/2011
One of the "scientific mysteries" of our universe is that its expansion rate seems to increase which cannot be accounted for with a simple Big Bang theory. This observation has spawned the hypothesis of "dark energy" which has not been "completely worked out mathematically and is not consistent with all existing knowledge". There appear to be numerous hypotheses for "dark energy" at this time.
If, as many astrophysicists postulate, our universe is uniformly surrounded by some ten-to-the-power-nineteen local universes (a.k.a. the local "multiverse") then what would an apple floating now at the periphery of our universe do? Float away from it according to "all existing knowledge" owing to the superior pull of the local systems around us. A contemporary Newton located at that periphery would immediately understand this observation. Perhaps this pull is also the cause for the accelerated expansion of our universe. Whatever the cause for expansion the local universes and later the whole multiverse may merge into a single super-universe because there is no reason to postulate that other universes are not expanding too. It will be up to astrophysicists of Einsteinian brain power to find out whether that super-universe is stable or whether it will eventually fragment owing to the slightest disturbance with each fragment swiftly collapsing into another proto-big-bang entity a.s.o, i.e. eternal. What I have written here is neither an experiment nor an observation. It is a hypothetical scientific bauble.
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Victor Stenger
Physicist, bestselling author. New book: God and t
04:26 PM on 07/05/2011
The acceleration of the universe is totally consistent with all existing knowledge. Repulsive gravity appears in Einstein's general theory of relativity. We just do not yet know what it is exactly.
02:39 PM on 06/30/2011
Again, you equate Intelligent Design with “creationismâ€. One doesn’t even have to be religious to believe the universe is intelligently organized, rather than the result of “natural selection†doing something (???) to random mutations. We don’t regard our human intelligence as supernatural, and if intelligence is a natural aspect of all reality, why should we regard it as supernatural. If 100 years ago someone had been shown a television, they might have regarded it as supernatural.

A Few Impertinent Questions about Autism, Freudianism and Materialism

http://30145.myauthorsite.com/
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Mr Ruthless
I can smell your BS
03:05 PM on 06/30/2011
"Again, you equate Intelligen­t Design with “creationi­smâ€. "

Then why do only creationists agree with it?

"One doesn’t even have to be religious to believe the universe is intelligen­tly organized"

You are at least a deist.
09:28 AM on 07/01/2011
I call myself an agnostic, but see how the term deist might apply. I do not believe in a personal god, but if anyone wants to call the organizing intelligence of nature a god, I wouldn't argue. Does applying a label make it easier to dismiss it with contempt?

A Few Impertinent Questions about Autism, Freudianism and Materialism

http://30145.myauthorsite.com/
03:17 PM on 06/30/2011
Are we sure what "intelligence" is? Try reading Immanuel Kant, or some linguistic philosophers some time on the subject. Or some recent clinical studies on the brain. We may not be as intelligent as we think we are, or as independent in our thought. Moreover, at the very least, we are incapable of attributing "intelligence" to the design of the universe, one way or the other.
02:13 PM on 06/30/2011
I decided a long time ago after observation and experience, that organized religious concepts of God were very cheap and very human. But I chose to have faith that there is a God, but he is silent. He does not participate. He observes. That is the only way I could reconcile my faith with the world as I see it.
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LuxorLava
you spend entirely too much time here
05:29 AM on 07/03/2011
I recommend reading through Corinthians & Ephesians with a Study Bible that has expanded notes & context for the verses. This has helped recently reconcile some issues. There is still much I do not understand, that I guess is the difference in being an "infant" vs a "mature" believer. I realize I d o not know all, that I do not have all the answers that my understanding still needs to grow. I still struggle at leaving behind my world-centric point of view & ideas...to put my faith first. I pray for wisdom & revelation so that my faith may grow. There is a journey of spiritual growth awaiting.
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ORAXX
Free lance philisopher and unicorn rancher.
02:02 PM on 06/30/2011
As part of our survival strategy as a species, human beings are hard wired to try and make sense of our surroundings. We also have the unfortunate tendency to make up explanations when faced with things not readily understood. All too often, those things we make up take a supernatural turn and evolve into cultural orthodoxies that are very difficult to overcome.
02:45 PM on 06/30/2011
And sometimes those explanations lead to scientific discoveries. Materialists believe the universe is a mechanical device, withoug meaning and prupse, and everything important has already been discovered. I suspect there is much more to doscover, including intelligence as a natural aspect of reality.

A Few Impertinent Questions about Autism, Freudianism and Materialism

http://30145.myauthorsite.com/
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Mr Ruthless
I can smell your BS
11:11 AM on 07/01/2011
No they don't, you are trying to argue for intelligent design for whatever reason. You more than likely have a hidden agenda.
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01:29 PM on 06/30/2011
i think (unfortunately) that once our species evolved intelligence, which brought awareness of mortality, the invention of religion was inevitable. i bet rationally anytime someone says "obey me and my rules in this world, and i'm sure you'll be happy in the next", most people would smell a rat. but when the lights go out, the concept of "eternity" can become staggering, and we all get a little scared, so i don't blame people. i just wish "faith" wasn't so resistant to compassion and understanding.
02:49 PM on 06/30/2011
So you believe intelligence originated with humans? As a random mutation? Personally, I've found atheistic materialists just as resistant to any compassion and understanding except their own version of it.

A Few Impertinent Questions aboiut Autism, Freudianism and Materialism

http://30145.myauthorsite.com/
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Mr Ruthless
I can smell your BS
03:11 PM on 06/30/2011
"So you believe intelligen­ce originated with humans?"

Other animals besides humans can be considered intelligent.

" Personally­, I've found atheistic materialis­ts just as resistant to any compassion and understand­ing except their own version of it."

Athiests just don't believe the mumbo jumbo, nothing more nothing less.