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Walt Hawkins

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Child, Please!

Posted: 12/05/11 09:02 PM ET

There's never been a shortage of ersatz experts struggling to establish some sort of correlation between homosexuality and a propensity to inflict harm upon children. Most often, this perceived association takes the form of a simple equation: homosexual = pedophile. My initial awareness of this came back in 1977, when former Miss Oklahoma and orange juice spokeswoman Anita Bryant was crusading to repeal a Dade County, Fla. ordinance that prohibited anti-gay discrimination. She named her organization "Save Our Children" and warned that "a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children." Despite a lack of any scientific evidence to support her claims, as well as her failure to mention that a particularly deviant-minded heterosexual teacher could, potentially, do likewise, Bryant's efforts were successful.

This past November, that bastion of robust, all-American masculinity known as college football was rocked by the arrest of Jerry Sandusky, former Penn State assistant football coach. Sandusky faces a multiple count indictment on charges that, over a period of years, he sexually abused boys he met through The Second Mile, a children's charity he founded in the late 1970s. Perhaps the most shocking allegation against Sandusky was that, in 2002, he was discovered, by another assistant coach, anally raping a 10-year-old boy in the locker room shower of the football building on the Penn State campus. Ever since Sandusky's arrest, the scandal has become a cause célèbre for right-wing extremists, who are practically tripping over each other in the stampede to place the blame in the hands of the gay community. Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh said, "Sandusky has to be -- he's a gay guy." Never mind that Sandusky has been married to the same woman since 1966. Peter LaBarbera, president of Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, stated on the organization's website, "There IS a long history connecting homosexuality to pederasty [sex with young boys]." Joseph Farah, editor-in-chief of the ultra-socially-conservative World Net Daily, claims that gay rights advocates are creating "an environment conducive for predators of children."

Then there's Dr. Judith Reisman, Ph.D. While discussing the Sandusky case during a recent interview, Dr. Reisman said, "The aim of homosexual males ... is not to have sex with other old guys and get married but to obtain sex with as many boys as possible. That's the reality. I wish it weren't, but it is." Reisman has also, in the past, claimed that the techniques employed by homosexuals to recruit children rival those of the United States Marine Corps, and that the gay rights movement in Germany led to the rise of the Nazi Party and, subsequently, the Holocaust.

On the other hand, Dr. A. Nicholas Groth, has this to say about the connection between homosexuality and pedophilia: "The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual."

Dr. Groth has also drawn the conclusion that male pedophiles do tend to victimize boys more often than girls, but for reasons that really have nothing to do with homosexuality. Groth opines that pedophiles are drawn to children sexually in that they identify with the child and appear to want to remain children themselves. This would explain Jerry Sandusky's description of the alleged locker room shower incident as "horsing around." Groth further stresses:

These same individuals are uninterested in adult homosexual relationships. In fact, they frequently express a strong sexual aversion to adult males, reporting that what they find attractive about the immature boy are his feminine features and the absence of secondary sexual characteristics such as body hair and muscles.

Two different doctors with two entirely different perspectives -- whom to believe?

Dr. Groth is a trained psychologist and pioneer in the scientific study of sexual offenders against women and children. Over the course of two decades, he treated more than 3,000 child molesters. Groth is also the author of Men Who Rape: Psychology of the Offender, a work widely regarded as a textbook on the psychology of sexual violence. Dr. Reisman, conversely, has a Ph.D. in communications from Case Western Reserve University. She is also a visiting professor at Liberty University, which was founded by the vehemently anti-gay Reverend Jerry Falwell.

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that Dr. Groth has infinitely more credibility than any of the other "experts" mentioned in this article. He formulated his ideas based on his own observations and exhaustive research, as any responsible, trained professional would do. The others seem to simply make up a bunch of crazy shit based on their bigoted agendas, and pray that no one has yet to figure out how to use Google. Thankfully, the days of being able to pull an Anita Bryant are long gone.

 
There's never been a shortage of ersatz experts struggling to establish some sort of correlation between homosexuality and a propensity to inflict harm upon children. Most often, this perceived associ...
There's never been a shortage of ersatz experts struggling to establish some sort of correlation between homosexuality and a propensity to inflict harm upon children. Most often, this perceived associ...
 
 
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KidSafeMoms
Child Safety Expert
05:47 AM on 12/07/2011
most child abusers are heterosexual, well educated, married with children and "seemingly upstanding citizens" - lets not turn child abuse into gay bashing! Child abuse is an epidemic and needs to be treated as one - when all the rhetoric dies down and the media stops talking about child abuse - please remember that there are so many children suffering in silence that gain strength from other survivors coming forward - please please don't squelch that by turning this into a story about homosexual/heterosexuals - no matter who is doing the abuse...it needs to end!! www.kidsafefoundation.org
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07:13 PM on 12/06/2011
I hate to be the bad girl here but I will say this. 50% of all sexually abused surviors may go on and perpetuate this crime. What I do know some of those in the gay community have been sexually abused as children by the same sex abuser and have gone on as an adult into homosexuality. The general public does not know this and those in the lifestyle are adamant that their abuse has nothing to do with their sexual perferences. I am not addressing those that are born this way- just those sexually abused. Do the research on that. What has happened to these boys an atrocity and their lives will be changed forever. Hopefully, there is not a ripple effect here.
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JohnFromCensornati
The End is near
06:29 AM on 12/07/2011
Don't let the facts stand in your way. Make up your own.
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12:42 AM on 12/08/2011
I hope my link can go through. It seems facts can't, for some reason.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/179/6/482.full
09:00 AM on 12/07/2011
what a bizarre collection of factoids.

Pedophiles are hardwired that way.
There are those who "re-enact"; the estimates of those of us who have been victimized as children who grow up to be predators and "re-enact" ranges from 10% to perhaps 30%. Would be interested in your source, and given that the vast majority of abuse is not reported, statistics are generally, from reputable sources noted as being empirical. Have not, to date, seen that figure of 50% from a reliable clinical source.

There can be gender orientation confusion on the part of a boy or girl who is abused by a same-gender predator. Generally, that confusion works its way out by the time the individual reaches majority when "re-enactment" becomes separated from core orientation.

In my decades of supporting the healing of other sexual abuse and incest survivors, I gotta say, the phenomena that you speak of so feelingly just does not exist. If you have done the research on this, provide the links.
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11:48 AM on 12/07/2011
Just a simple Wiki search. Although, I have text books that have a back up for my statement. Regardless, the facility that I have experience, I can tell you the number are high for criminals that are perpetuating this act have been violated as a child themselves. I will post some quick references next comment.
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11:54 AM on 12/07/2011
Later work (Holmes and Holmes, 2002) expanded on the types of offenders and their psychological profiles. They are divided thus:[108]
Situational – does not prefer children, but offend under certain conditions.
Regressed – Typically has relationships with adults, but a stressor causes them to seek children as a substitute.
Morally Indiscriminate – All-around sexual deviant, who may commit other sexual offenses unrelated to children.
Naive/Inadequate – Often mentally disabled in some way, finds children less threatening.
Preferential – has true sexual interest in children.
Mysoped – Sadistic and violent, target strangers more often than acquaintances.
Fixated – Little or no activity with own age, described as an "overgrown child."
The victims do not make the connection between their abuse and their present pathology.
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Rose Zelaya
06:54 PM on 12/06/2011
I am not an expert, but pedophelia to me is plain demonic,,sorry I see no way out on this one, you been turned over to your own devious sexual devises and a sick spirit has entered your soul.
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jimboy71
Hen Diapheron Heautoi
12:30 PM on 12/07/2011
That is precisely the wrong way to see it. When we make the abuser inhuman, we excuse the possibility that they are ALL TOO human. Which is why we're looking for the lurker in the darkeness of the bushes instead of the smiling uncle, happy teacher, or trusted confidante.

These real human beings do terrible things, and it is only by acknowledging that "normal" people can do these terrible acts of abuse that we come to terms with them, and start to heal our communities.
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01:26 PM on 12/07/2011
No, not true. Lovely statement, but not true. "Normal" people do not do this. Regular everyday people do, yes. Some not so regular and not so "normal" too. You cannot at all as much as you want to just "heal the community" from this. All people and sexual orientation need to comes to terms with what the ripple effect is and compare the beginning of the cycle to the end of the cycle. And we my dear will never know all the answers but we may know a few. Like them or not.
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pciorlandosales
have come to chew bubble gum and kick ash
08:13 PM on 12/12/2011
I think more than that ... it is a mental illness. As we further understand the brain and it's function I believe we will eventually have not just the answer but the cure for these sociological brain disorders. A great documentary I would recommend to anyone interested in the most modern study of the brain would be "What The Bleep? Down The Rabbit Hole". This film describes the synapses that take place within the brain. It does it in a very plain and easy to understand manner. Like when you go on vacation to a place for the first time. That feeling of euphoria or wonderment that you feel when you see something incredible for the first time. What happens in your brain to trigger these feelings? I feel that in the not so distant future these interactions within your brain can be skipped or altered with e-stimulation, or with medication. It will lead to cures in alcoholism, drug addiction and many other disorders. It will (like any disorder) take the person with the disorder to admit to having the disorder and the next step is the person wanting to do something about the disorder. That's when the medical intervention can take place.
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Mary Poe
06:05 PM on 12/06/2011
Excellent post. Homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia or rapists.
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rwgunn
Questioning a truth will not make it false.
05:09 PM on 12/06/2011
I know several women who were molested by close relatives, one of them by a step father. In a couple of the cases, a factor that caused even more damage to the victims was a sense that their mother knew but wouldn't/couldn't accept the reality and so the victim felt even more isolated from any hope of getting out of the situation. Even more deadly, they felt they wouldn't be believed if they complained. This same unwillingness to see a person who has been accepted into one's life (boyfriend/husband/friend) in a completely different and damning light could be a factor in society's tendency to tag "gays" as the perpetrator of such crimes. In other words, "Heterosexuals (like me) can't be the ones doing such bad things. I just can't accept it."
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Bearthoven
Life from a bear's viewpoint
04:38 PM on 12/06/2011
The people who are trying to link pedophilia with homosexuality are doing it for one reason only, it's a big money maker. In order to keep the donations, and let's face it, anything that appears to be threatening to children earns them big donations, coming in they resort to this type of scare tactics. It's worked in every marriage equality vote, it worked for Anita Bryant, and it still works today. These people know that children are not at risk with gay families, but they don't want to lose their donations and big paychecks either, so it's easy for them to blame gays. Being a gay father, I am insulted and angry when I hear the rhetoric about gay families. What's even more insulting is they make assumptions that all gay people are after their children. Sorry, but I like men my age. I don't like boys and I find the idea of pedophilia completely repugnant, along with groups like NOM, Focus on the Family, etc.
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Venmaker1
I am deeply suspicious
04:02 PM on 12/06/2011
This points out that we are a country that could benefit from direct, fact based human sexuality education courses. Time to get the silly and shame driven emotions out of the classroom; our country cannot move forward when people are ignorant and being ignorant should be inexcusable today.
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MartiniVirtuoso
Outspoken on equality
02:37 PM on 12/06/2011
The bigger cause and effect questions that should come from this have to do with our attitudes toward protecting our children vs. the untouchable culture of sports in this country. Because some of the men involved in this situation were revered for their status in the world of college sports, they weren't reported as soon as they might have been otherwise. If you have a kid, are you more questioning about the gay neighbor than his straight soccer coach? If you are thinking that the gay men in his life are the risk, I think you haven't been paying attention.
04:22 PM on 12/06/2011
The reality of it is that most sexual abuse in this country remains unreported for a whole host of reasons - the child does not have a safe person to talk to about this, the child may not have the vocabulary to explain what happened, children are a bit egocentric and may assume that they are responsible for the abuse... all of these reasons and more, combine to leave abuse shrouded in secrecy...

what people can do is be aware of the adult in their midst with "poor boundaries' - who hugs a child too long, who engages in physical games of teasing and roughhousing that 'seem to go a bit too far'... who constantly focus on children....
and, folks can be aware of the child whose grades suddenly plummet, who suddenly does not want to participate in a previously favored extracurricular activity. In teens - a sudden use of drugs or booze.... are all potential signs of dysfunction and dis-ease in his or her personal environment.
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Mark Van Kekerix
An Ordinary Gay Guy
02:23 PM on 12/06/2011
So if all gay men are pedophiles, it must be wrong for me (a gay man) to spend time with my nieces?

So much has been said here about how wrong the anti-gay organizations are on this subject that it would be a waste of time for me to repeat it. But I'd like to add this: I honestly think that most of these anti-gay organizations and 'experts' actually know very well how wrong they are. Their use of the "homosexual=pedophile" argument is purely cynical.

I think they knowingly use this false argument because gets an instinctive emotional reaction. We as a society, when faced with a possible threat to our children, tend to overreact to the possibility of that threat. So all these groups have to do is place a tiny bit of doubt in some people's minds, and they can (and often will) overreact. They may think to themselves "well, I'm 90% sure gay people aren't pedophiles, but we're talking about our CHILDREN here, so I don't even want to take that 10% chance."

I believe it is a very deliberate intent to manipulate people by the anti-gay forces. I'm not sure how we fight it beyond simply repeating the real facts, but we'll probably have to repeat them quite a lot.
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Venmaker1
I am deeply suspicious
03:54 PM on 12/06/2011
Spot on!
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12:24 PM on 12/07/2011
No, not wrong. In fact, if your home was sexually crime free growing up, then I would say your sister/brother would have absolutely no reason not to trust you completely. The reason I made that statement is because some families are in denial of the home crime that has happened and give their young children to the perpetrator. Yes, that happens. Look how many people turned a blind eye and unrealted to Sandusky's crimes. Much more complex when it's your own family and confusing for someone to step up.
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AbsolutDemocrat
01:13 PM on 12/06/2011
This has nothing to do with the gay community, inasmuch as a pedophile who targets young girls reflects on the heterosexuals. It's a vile sickness no matter what the gender of the victims. End of story.
02:30 PM on 12/06/2011
I agree, although ironically, your post assumes the offender is a male.
Of course, it seems the majority are, but just sayin'. There are female abusers too, even if it is less common.
04:28 PM on 12/06/2011
there are female pedophiles - some studies put the percentage at around 6%. For "situational predators", usually men and women who were abused as children and then, as adults, 'act out', the ratio is much higher. for predators who are extremely biochemically disturbed (schizophrenics, sociopaths, etc) it may be about equal.

I attended a retreat for male sexual abuse survivors a number of years ago, and in the intro meeting, the facilitator asked for a show of hands for those of us who had been abused by women.. mothers, older sisters, teachers, whomever - and 40% of the men at the conference raised their hands... Hardly a scientific study, but for me, at the time, an arresting empirical moment. Many of us had parallel experiences in parents who "triangulated' the abuse... one parent abuses the child, the other becomes jealous, treats the child as a true competitor for affection, and then goes after the kid sexually to "prove a point". In the OTHER scandal going on, with Bernie Fine and his wife, the wife's bedding of the husband's "boytoy" might be seen as that kind of triangulation. Sick, but not uncommon.
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06:40 PM on 12/07/2011
Hey your community wrote the story. Not me. I am just giving the same arguement that you just did.
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JM Brodie
Baltimore-based Denverite
12:58 PM on 12/06/2011
Well said. I have always wondered how to describe this behavior. I don't see it as gay any than I would assume a man molesting little girls would want anything to do with women. Naive on this, I am. Thoughts?
03:00 PM on 12/06/2011
When it comes to true pedophiles, you are correct. So, a male pedophile may have a fixation for little boys, and be completely hetero in his adult life.. even offended if a gay guy "hit' on him for any reason. Most reported pedophiles are male, but some estimates indicate that there are bout 6% of pedophiles out there who are women.

Not all predators are pedophiles; some are situational abusers; they may abuse because they have been abused and are "re-enacting". Not all abuse victims grow up to be predators, the eistimate is that about 10& of victims re-enact.

And then there is a small percentage of schitzophrenics, sociopaths and psychopaths, folks with serious biochemically driven behavioral health issues.

pedophiles seem to be hardwired, and they fail to percieve their abuse as bad, they feel they are "helping' kids.. (really). Re-enactment abusers are generally driven by issues of unresolved anger and rage.
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JM Brodie
Baltimore-based Denverite
03:27 PM on 12/06/2011
Thank you. Fanned.
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cjus2473
Far Left as you can get
03:20 PM on 12/06/2011
as a sex offender officer, this is about deviant behavior. If you want to describe the term “homosexuality” with regards to grown men/women having sex with their own gender, then yes, it falls only under that definition. But are men or women who have sex with children “homosexual” – not in the broad. Some are married and have children. most sex offenders get off on the power, the control and most will explain to you that they are doing ‘good things’ for and to these kids. It is manipulation. But to classify pedophiles as homosexual in the broad sense, the answer is no. Pedophiles have a proclivity for children – no matter what the gender. Some only prefer one gender, some like all genders – as long as they are children. I think it is easier to understand if you think of this as violence, It is the power, the control, and the “supposed” adoration of these kids that drives them. But they must groom the kids; kids don’t willingly want to have sex with adults. As a member of the straight community, it would be offensive to me to have people label rapists, i.e. men who rape women, as being “straight” versus being a predator, as I presume the gay community would be outraged to hear that sex offenders who molest kids of their own gender classified as “homosexual” versus “pedophile”.
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JM Brodie
Baltimore-based Denverite
03:27 PM on 12/06/2011
Thank you for the insights. Fanned.
04:14 PM on 12/06/2011
Thoughtful reply... wish there were more awareness within the enforcement professions.....
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Bill J4321
12:52 PM on 12/06/2011
The truth is, you could attribute practically anything negative in society to LGBT citizens and the majority will eat it up with a spoon and ask for seconds.

People 'believe' that gay men are pedophiles because they WANT to believe that. It helps stew their hatred and justify it to themselves. ACTUAL facts and statistics and TRUTH have little meaning when many heterosexuals consider the lives of all the gay people they created.

This is what very, very many of them call morality.
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mchcallow
Hey gurl- how you doin
01:29 PM on 12/06/2011
Well stated Bill...
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JHuff68
03:53 PM on 12/06/2011
So true Bill. I'm still trying to figure out WHY some people have such vile hate for gays? I really don't get it.
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Bill J4321
04:24 PM on 12/06/2011
For some reason, very, very many people seem to believe that because of what is written in the bible, they are perfectly justified in treating gay people in the manner that we are treated.

Yet, can you imagine the mayhem that would ensue if gay people went around treating women or black people in the way that very many women and black people treat gay people, and then gay people justfying that with what is clearly written in the bible about women and blacks? We'd be locked up.

This is exactly the same thing. The responses that are sure to follow that will scream, 'but that's different,­' will only serve to prove this point.

People feel justified in their mistreatme­nt of gay people because of what the bible says, yet they do not accept that type of treratment for ANY other group becasue of what is written in the bible about and against them.

In short, it's plain old fashioned bigotry.
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angelcakesinc
Tolerance of intolerance is intolerable
10:09 PM on 12/06/2011
The church. Pretty simple, really. The vast majority of homophobia comes from the church. In this country that means Christianity specifically though the other members of the 'big 3' are equally as guilty, just not anywhere near as powerful in the US. If I hear another bigot quote the bible while trying to deny me my rights as an American citizen I swear to all the gods above that I will beat them with their own holy book.
12:42 PM on 12/06/2011
Insightful.
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PoggeB
Pope of The Church of the Eternal Sproinger
12:39 PM on 12/06/2011
When my son was seven years-old I had a gay roommate and many times fielded ridiculous questions about the imagined danger of the boy being molested (my roommate had a healthy interest in big burly ADULT men and was seeing someone). I was always puzzled that people who thought nothing of having an unrelated male heterosexual living in a house with little girls (Margaret Meade considered that a recipe for disaster) were concerned about my child's safety. A pedophile is a pedophile because their sexual desire for children is more important than their moral duty to protect them-a choice, ironically enough.
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Gwens
Well done is better than well said."
02:37 PM on 12/06/2011
thank you for sharing that
12:32 PM on 12/06/2011
We all need some enlightment here. If an adult male is only attracted to other adult males that is homosexually and not Pedophilia. Ok, I can sort of see that.
However, if an adult male is only sexually attracted to male children, is this is only Pedophilia? What happens to the male to male attraction? Do you just ignore this part of the attraction? While it may be only a child, it is still an attraction to a male isn't it? Or do we just ignore that little fact? And in the most general terms pedophiles do confine themselves to a specific gender. So does a general proclivity to confine themselves to a specific gender have no meaning? Then why don't pedophiles prey upon and molest children of both sexes? I know that some do but how to explain the vast majorities that are gender specific? If there isn't a specific attraction to the same sex then pedophiles would be stalking both male and female. I know you won't like the questions but they are real and deserve considerations and not a bunch of "you hate them/me" crap that avoids the difficult questions.
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PoggeB
Pope of The Church of the Eternal Sproinger
12:58 PM on 12/06/2011
What we are looking at here are three seperate and completely different things-homosexuality, heterosexuality and pedophilia-all entirely based on sexual orientation-ame sex, opposite sex and children. Who a pedophile has sex with when they can't satisfy themselves with a victim really is beside the point since if children were freeely available with no social stigma attached or legal repercussions the pedophile would always choose a child.
01:19 PM on 12/06/2011
I would sincerely doubt that Sandusky ever sought sex with an adult male, and would be shocked if someone proposed such to him. He is hardwired as a heterosexual, but also has a hardwiring challenge in that he is attracted to pre-pubescent boys. He is married, and I doubt that it is a sham marriage....

Some male pedophiles DO molest little girls...and some molest both.

and, about six% of pedophiles are women....

pedophiles are insatiable, and the average number of victims, according to one study, was 135

Not all predators are pedophiles, some are "situaltional abusers" who were, most likely, abused as children and are "re-enacting". statistics are hard to come by but some experienced clinicians estimate that about 10% of those of us who were abused as children grow up to become predators... those abusers are likely to have one-five victims.

The discussion about the abuse of chilren is a critical one, and for that reason, I always grow frustrated with the conflation of pedophilia with gender orientation. Said as a survivor of incest, of sexual abuse and a hetero married guy.
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Gwens
Well done is better than well said."
02:40 PM on 12/06/2011
well Sandusky himself thinks he is a big kid so it falls right into what Dr. A. Nicholas Groth writes above.
03:46 PM on 12/06/2011
Vonric, many many thanks for your helpful, thoughtful and personal postings. The best way for others to learn is through the kind of words that you provide. Also, thanks for sharing the date about female pedophiles. From my experience that number is low. Perhaps in 10 or 20 years we will have better data when boys and men are more comfortable revealing the abuse they experienced at the hands of a woman. Perhaps conversations like these will help boys and men understand that as children they were abused and not "lucky" to have the attention of an adult female.