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Wray Herbert

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Does the 'Empathy Gap' Encourage Torture?

Posted: 04/20/11 10:20 AM ET

Imagine that you work for a government agency and are trying to get information from a suspected terrorist. As part of your interrogation you lock the detainee in a "cold cell," a room where the temperature is near freezing. The procedure is to keep the detainee there for up to five hours, with little or no clothing.

Now try to get inside your suspect's mind and body. What is he feeling? How much pain is he in, physically and psychologically? Does such an interrogation technique seem OK to you? When does his pain cross the line into immoral and illegal torture?

The cold cell scenario is from a recent psychological study of torture, deliberately made to resemble the "enhanced interrogation techniques" instituted by the Bush administration following 9/11. When these methods -- including sleep deprivation, simulated drowning and isolation -- came to public attention with the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in 2004, they sparked fierce debate about these difficult psychological questions, especially the core one: How much pain is too much pain? Although President Obama banned some of the harshest forms of interrogation in 2009, the new policies have left the psychological questions unanswered.

A team of researchers has been looking for answers. Psychological scientist Loran Nordgren of Northwestern University, working with Mary-Hunter Morris McDonnell of Harvard Law School and George Loewenstein of Carnegie Mellon, wanted to explore a well known psychological phenomenon called the "empathy gap" as it relates to torture. Normally, it's very difficult, perhaps even impossible, to experience someone else's visceral states. If we're warm, it's hard to shiver for someone else; if we're rested, it takes an extraordinary act of imagination to feel the exhaustion of someone who is sleep-deprived. If this is true, the researchers wondered, how can anyone hope to write an ethical and humane policy on torture without having experienced some significant pain?

In order to investigate these issues, Nordgren and his colleagues inflicted some pain. In the cold cell experiment, for example, they asked volunteers to actively imagine being the interrogator in that situation, and to fill out a questionnaire. But some of the volunteers were instructed to submerge one arm in a bucket of ice water and keep it there while they answered the questions. The water was about 40 degrees Fahrenheit, quite painful for most people. Others also submerged their arm in the ice water but removed it 10 minutes before answering the questions, while still others, the controls, filled out the questionnaire with one arm in water at room temperature.

The questionnaire asked them to rate the severity of the pain experienced by the imaginary detainee in the cold cell. It also asked them to categorize the interrogation technique as mere questioning; acceptable interrogation; oppressive interrogation; or torture, unacceptable under any circumstances.

The results were clear and consistent with what the empathy gap would predict. As described in a forthcoming issue of the journal Psychological Science, those who were experiencing pain at that moment judged the cold cell as more painful than any of the others did, and they were also more likely to label the interrogation as unacceptable "torture." Particularly striking was the finding that those volunteers who had experienced prior pain, even though it was just 10 minutes prior, did not share these judgments. They were indistinguishable from the controls, challenging the notion that people with past experiences of pain are in a better position to make ethical judgments. This is important, because government interrogators are often exposed to a version of enhanced interrogation during their training, but it appears that the memories of this pain fade away, along with empathy and ethical qualms.

This was just one of four similar experiments that the scientists conducted. Others focused on sleep deprivation and solitary confinement, and in each case some of the volunteers were given a mild version of the specific pain inflicted during interrogation. And in each case, those in pain perceived the imaginary detainees' pain as more severe and were more opposed to that particular form of interrogation on ethical grounds.

A fair question is whether this discrepancy in empathy and ethical judgment resulted from an underestimation of pain by those not in pain, or an overestimation by those in pain. The researchers ran a version of the experiment to address this question, and verified that it's the inability to feel another's pain that causes the gap. It's apparently not possible to really imagine the full force of someone else's pain. The scientists conclude that judgments made in a state of pain are more fully informed, and therefore more valid, than those made in the absence of pain.

This has clear policy implications, not just for Americans but around the globe, where these controversial practices are widely used. The empathy gap, for both physical and psychological pain, undermines human ability to objectively evaluate harsh methods of interrogation. And since legal standards regulating interrogation and torture are typically written by people who are not in pain, it's very likely that some forms of torture are not being prohibited as such. Indeed, this systematic tendency to underestimate pain has the effect of encouraging torture. In short, the legal standard for evaluating torture in psychologically invalid.

 
 
 
Imagine that you work for a government agency and are trying to get information from a suspected terrorist. As part of your interrogation you lock the detainee in a "cold cell," a room where the tempe...
Imagine that you work for a government agency and are trying to get information from a suspected terrorist. As part of your interrogation you lock the detainee in a "cold cell," a room where the tempe...
 
 
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cromag
two parties is the problem
11:29 AM on 04/22/2011
Torturers aren't exactly picked for their empathy.
And the US, as a whole, would I say have certain degree of empathy. It was a big stink over the 'enhanced interrogation' stuff; and all that pails in comparison to what friends of ours do as routine interrogation. The great American attention span killed the issue more than lack of empathy. We were having debates over organized humiliation and practices that make someone think they will be harmed; meanwhile we find bodies with holes drilled into their body parts or massive electrical burn scars.
Whats gets me is that the Bush policies through out proven effective techniques to implement bad ones.
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WoodsideCraig
Author of the blog "The Weiler Psi"
09:14 PM on 04/21/2011
Without empathy, we are nothing.
10:50 AM on 04/21/2011
A little while ago HP had an article about how Millenials (I am one) have no empathy. It's true. I don't have empathy; I don't even really understand why someone would. It seems like empathy is weakness to me. It's every man for himself. Don't beat up on me when I'm trying to be honest.
11:58 AM on 04/21/2011
hi crafty, thanks for the honesty. just tossing out an idea here... do you suppose the millenial lack of empathy might be connected with the dismal economic prospect of the world today coupled with our rapid fire on-line community?
12:16 PM on 04/21/2011
I think the online thing does contribute, but I noticed early on that I lacked empathy. My mom reminds me of that for 18 years of my life. So I guess I can't blame the economy or online forums for my selfishness during the 90s.
02:48 PM on 04/21/2011
I don't see empathy as a weakness at all. I think empathy is one of our greatest human strengths.

I appreciate your honesty - but I believe empathy is important as it is what allows us to connect and engage with others. Empathy helps us build communities and societies. Empathy is a tool that allows us to feel and sense the world from another's perspective - it allows us to bridge the gap between ourselves and others. I don't think anyone makes it too long alone - even in this "every man for himself" world.
09:49 AM on 04/25/2011
I agree; if everyone were like me, the world would be a dysfunctional and horrible place. LOL I guess I'm just glad someone else is empathetic, so I don't have to be. Maybe empathy comes with age.
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joncavanaugh
I am, and forever remain, at your service.
10:44 PM on 04/20/2011
Empathy is something Americans cast off along with morals and ethics a while ago.
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07:07 AM on 04/21/2011
i think you may be right. i am very disturbed at the lack of empathy in so many comments on this site.
it seems very much an american thing.
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Jokergirl
No joke actually, humor helps heal
04:25 PM on 04/21/2011
I'm sure the media would like us to believe that because as the old news adage goes "If It Bleeds Then It Leads". It may seem that way but I've had plenty of strangers help me out when I needed it, whether it was a kind word, or literally helping me push my car out of the street. Another cynical American gee, there's a shocker.
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COPESTIR3
09:19 PM on 04/20/2011
Collecting information about the motivation of a terrorist would require accuracy. Empathy would tell the interrogator that after awhile the tortured individual would say or do anything to get the abuse to stop. They might say there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, for example. I like General Eisenhower's stance, "We just do not do those things." We still won the war.
The failure of our war against terror has to do with our failure of intelligence on lots of levels. It is time we think less about force and physical abuse and more about how we can actually defeat inhumanity. That can only be done by remaining intelligent, compassion humans.
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Jokergirl
No joke actually, humor helps heal
04:17 PM on 04/21/2011
I'm not trying to sound all gung ho American here, that's not my intention at all. You can negotiate with a murderer, rapist, (interrogation wise) any other criminal BUT, you cannot negotiate with a fundamentalist/terrorist. Terrorists are a completely different "criminal" because they are literally on a mission, and for most money is not even important to those who literally carry out these horrific acts. They are so absolute on their cause and their methodology that they will stop at nothing to make a statement or gather followers. It's a movement, the fundamentalist's (think Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, Hamas etc.) perversion of Islam. Case in point, September 11th, 2001 people who are so committed to a cause that they would kill themselves willingly, and kill thousands in the process from countries all over the world (53 countries were represented in the WTC Twin Towers this not including the lives lost on the planes) you cannot negotiate with people with that kind of ideology. I agree that there was a HUGE failure of intelligence, it's fine to remain compassionate human beings, the thing is these fundamentalists/terrorists do not look at their victims as human. Therein lies the problem how do you deal with groups like these suicide bombers, who do not see their victims as human? Intelligence and prevention go a long way but then what? It's a never ending question I think.
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Jokergirl
No joke actually, humor helps heal
04:34 PM on 04/21/2011
My long post didn't get in or something. The war against terror is highly complex and not just because of the many, the lives lost, the locations, the networks, the cells that are around the world either. These fundamentalist terrorists are absolute in their convictions, they are literally on a mission. It's fine to have compassion and remain humane BUT these groups do not see their victims as human either, that is another problem. You cannot negotiate with a terrorist, any other criminal, yes, a terrorist no, I am talking those who willingly kill themselves and others in the name of ideology/religion (think Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) Therein lies the problem and its' a never ending problem.
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swabby01
09:04 AM on 04/25/2011
you cannot base your behavior on theirs. it does not matter how bad they are. is that what you need to become to fight it? you may not be able to 'negotiate' with terrorists but they do have predictable behavior and can be tricked, foiled, and have their egos used against them. one needs creativity, not violence. what if the usa didn't go to war at all after 9/1l? what if the peace corps was the usa's 'army' in the world? that would be my foreign policy. i spent 10 years in the army; it isn't the answer. how many middle easterners want to kill americans now compared to 20 years ago? do you think 10 years of death and destruction has made a positive difference at all? you may not be able to talk to crazy people but you can undermine, trick, and otherwise disrupt their actions without adding more people to our enemy list as we squash the innocent in our way. it is about who we are, not who they are. i learned in the army that we are more like 'them' than we want to admit.
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regulargal
Tea parties are for little girls.
09:12 PM on 04/20/2011
I think there is a major lack of empathy in US politics, particularly in the conservative camp.
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danglines
02:54 AM on 04/21/2011
I absolutely agree. Their also greedy! Even if their not rich!
08:06 PM on 04/20/2011
This is a sad but true reflections on human limitations. The book "The Lucifer Effect" by Phillip Zimbardo is a revelation in explaining how good people can end up doing bad things. One of the key factors is the depersonalization of "the other". My guess is that in the experiment the prisoner was immediately seen as "other" and therefore their pain not real by the imagined interrogators. Only when the interrogator had to suffer as the prisoner did at the same time, did the prisoner then become human and the same as they would be experiencing the same thing at the same time.
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french queen13
my beloved is mine and I am his
06:37 PM on 04/20/2011
Seems to me there's a failure of memory or imagination, as much as empathy, on the part of those who can't imagine another's exhaustion, pain, or whatever. Have they NEVER known such things, or even similar things, themselves? Can't they extrapolate from that to the simple "I would not want to suffer pain or exhaustion, I would not want them inflicted on me" to someone else having the same feelings?
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french queen13
my beloved is mine and I am his
06:32 PM on 04/20/2011
"When does his pain cross the line into immoral and illegal torture?"

Errm, the minute he's stripped and put into the cold cell?
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swabby01
09:05 AM on 04/25/2011
the minute he's stripped.
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yatinjpatel
Board certified sleep physician, Author, Speaker
06:28 PM on 04/20/2011
Interesting post. On a related note, I have seen and felt personally empathy fatigue while working in ICU for extended time. You feel numb and do the duty without feeling other's pain.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
missjulz
romneying with scissors always gets someone hurt
06:28 PM on 04/20/2011
Full disclosure: I took an empathy test recently and rated extremely high, I'm probably a bit codependent in fact so I don't think it's a score I should tout as necessarily a great thing.... but.... now I'm beginning to think that test was reliable.

I have a very hard time with the results above because I CAN very much feel other's pain for something that I've experienced, like the death of a loved one. I feel it physically and emotionally. So, maybe I am really more empathetic than some people but I really don't like thinking I'm more emphathetic than MOST people.

Disturbing. But enlightening. I wish there was a study to challenge these results though. I liked my fantasy that most people were as capable of empathy as I before reading this.
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LivelyLexie
Don't panic.
08:07 PM on 04/20/2011
I agree. I can't comprehend how someone CAN'T feel empathy. It's awful.
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danglines
02:56 AM on 04/21/2011
You've never met a narcissist!
12:18 PM on 04/21/2011
I honestly can't comprehend how someone COULD feel empathy. My mom is very empathetic, and she's constantly getting screwed over because of it. Nice guys finish last. I guess I'm just too selfish to be empathetic.
03:08 PM on 04/20/2011
This is why it is important to have strict and inflexible laws prohibiting torture. It IS far too easy for good people to do horrible things.
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Jokergirl
No joke actually, humor helps heal
08:30 PM on 04/20/2011
I think situation enters into it here. In war the lines are blurred as to what's good and what's bad.
02:56 AM on 04/21/2011
How is it that one can be an absolutist when it comes to the morality of something like abortion but become a relativist once we choose war? It's because those lines are so easily blurred in the moment that we need very strict laws that are strongly enforced.
02:41 PM on 04/20/2011
Watch the movie "Unthinkable" with Samuel L Jackson, Carrie Anne Moss, and Michael Sheen. Vivid and disturbing scenes of enhanced interrogation techniques brings the entire debate to life. Nothing is clear cut about this topic, but this movie highlights the real issue, unmentioned in the preceding article, that the efficacy of these techniques is far more important than anyone's feelings about them.
02:58 AM on 04/21/2011
They've been proven not to be effective and yet we continued on with them. What does that say about us? And if the end justifies the means, don't we run into trouble with all of our laws?
01:52 PM on 04/20/2011
A well written and cogent post. What would follow from this is that those who develop torture polices need themselves to undergo the torture practice they are evaluating in order to make a fully informed argument of whether that practice is acceptable. I'm all for that.
11:11 AM on 04/20/2011
I think Dr. Stanley Milgram touched on this sort of thing.

Average 'good' people can do some very troubling things. If we believe that it takes 'monsters' or 'brain damaged' people to do the unspeakable, we will end up excusing the behavior of those we like, love or admire.

Sometimes all it takes is a believe or a cause to depersonalize others in our mind.

Roger
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sprider
Born lucky
12:06 PM on 04/20/2011
Well said Roger. F&F
12:19 PM on 04/21/2011
Exactly!